Reinhard Heydrich capture by Soviet red Army on July 1941

In Short
Reinhard Heydrich second in command of SS, was also pilot and join on occasions Luftwaffe as fighter Pilot
but in July 1941 his Bf109 was hit and landed behind frontline in Soviet territory
the SS dit every thing to save Heydrich with success

But what if they failed and red army capture Reinhard Heydrich ?

How would turn out if Number four in Reich leadership enden imprisonment in Moscow ?
(next to that Hess also is capture by British...)
and without Heydrich in SS how would affect this the Holocaust ?

More Info on matter
 
and without Heydrich in SS how would affect this the Holocaust ?

To be frank, it changes little. Heydrich was an important factor...but not the only one and not indispensable. Nor was he in control of every aspect of the genocide, including the Holocaust by bullets. The extermination process certainly didn't slow down after his OTL death.

Yes, the RSHA controlled the Einsatzgruppen and played an important role in organising, and radicalising the persecution and murder of the European Jews, but mass killings were also carried out by SS-police troops controlled by the HSSPFs (Himmler's regional deputies in the occupied territories, who could issue orders and coordinate all SS formations in their region) - men like Jeckeln and Bach-Zelewski. Indeed Jeckeln was so zealous that an Einsatzkommando saw the need to report to Berlin that it was killing lots of Jews, too. And he actually massacred a group of German Jews who'd been deported to Riga he wasn't supposed to kill (it's a bit murky whether he didn't get the order in time or just ignored it).

And naturally the Wehrmacht was an active participant in the genocide. The police battalions such as Reserve Police Battalion 101 weren't controlled by the RSHA, but by the HSSPFs and the Order Police, which was run by Daluege. And they provided the bulk of the manpower for the Holocaust by bullets. The eventual Aktion Reinhard extermination camps in the General Government were set up by Globocnik's people, who got them loaned to him from the T4 programme. Moreover, the infrastructure set up by Heydrich, Best, and Himmler in the RSHA is still in place. Nebe, Müller, Eichmann, Streckenbach, Ohlendorf and their cohorts are still there. The 'uncompromising generation' will continue its bloody work, not the least since they will have to prove their utility after their boss got himself captured because he craved some glory.

Question is who represents the SS leadership at the Wannsee Conference...but this frankly isn't a big deal because it was a coordination and implementation conference (and a chance for bureaucratic posturing)m not a decision-making one. The decision had long been made. They didn't sit down and take a vote on whether to carry out the extermination of the Jews. Himmler may take over temporary leadership of the RSHA, as he did after Heydrich died in 1942, while fishing for someone to do the job full-time.

Worth noting that Heydrich was never officially Himmler's 2IC since Himmler didn't have one, though he essentially played that role but he couldn't just give orders to another SS bigshot who was on the same level as him or say tell a Waffen-SS commander or the Order Police to do something. The only SS chief who could meddle in all spheres of the SS was Himmler, since its leadership structure was incredibly personalised and essentially built around him. Longerich's Himmler biography shows this well.

As Gerwarth's Heydrich biography shows, the two had a partnership because they were men with complementary talents. However, no doubt him being captured will make the SS look bad since it's such a major breach of security and Heydrich frankly had no business playing Luftwaffe pilot just because he had a complex about not being able to fight in WW1 (which incidentally also debunks the idea that he was just a human calculator solely driven by 'cold logic'), and motivate them to ramp up the killings to wipe away that stain. Question is who gets to run Bohemia-Moravia, since Neurath's gonna be reduced to a figurehead no matter what. Karl-Hermann Frank is a possible candidate, and it's worth noting that Heydrich's OTL policies were supported by him.
 
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I've been roughing out a TL where he's forced down over the UK in the Battle of Britain (his ex Dutch production Heinkel He 112 had it's engine size), tries to escape some farm workers after shooting one, only to get a pitchfork through his chest for his trouble.
 
Heydrich becoming a prisoner would be a tremendous embarrassment for the Reich. You can fling around that 'man with the iron heart' stuff all you want, but he never once struck me as the kind of fellow who would resiliently endure brutal interrogation. He might very well reveal important secrets, including what was being done/proposed to eradicate the Jews; the Final Solution may thus experience a hiccup of sorts due to early exposure and subsequent publicity to the world. One can only wonder what statement the Reich would make in response to the international headlines trumpeting 'Nazi Plans to Cull Jews En Masse: Straight from the Horse's Mouth'. I also reckon that once the war is over, the captive Heydrich becomes the principal defendant at Nuremburg.
 
It’s odd how the death camps were made to spare the Einsatzgruppen the stress of killing Jewish people en masse yet German forces didn’t have the same issue doing the same exact thing to Slavs in various reprisals and anti partisan campaigns over the course of years.
 
In Short
Reinhard Heydrich second in command of SS, was also pilot and join on occasions Luftwaffe as fighter Pilot
but in July 1941 his Bf109 was hit and landed behind frontline in Soviet territory
the SS dit every thing to save Heydrich with success

But what if they failed and red army capture Reinhard Heydrich ?

How would turn out if Number four in Reich leadership enden imprisonment in Moscow ?
(next to that Hess also is capture by British...)
and without Heydrich in SS how would affect this the Holocaust ?

More Info on matter
Very little impact. He was the most competent member of the top leadership. He did not originate policy. He joined the SS because the Navy kicked him out for having not married a senior officer's daughter after becoming physically involved. His new gf/wife had connections to help land him a job.
 
To be frank, it changes little. Heydrich was an important factor...but not the only one and not indispensable. Nor was he in control of every aspect of the genocide, including the Holocaust by bullets. The extermination process certainly didn't slow down after his OTL death.
For more detail, the SS Einsatzgruppen and Wehrmacht executed Jews on site and move on.
But during Operation Barbarossa command of Wehrmacht express dissatisfaction about "the negative impact on Moral of the Regular troops!" involve in this holocaust.
Next to that the civilian administration of occupation territory wanted a solution for Gettos filled with Jews and other people.
Those and question what to do with them? let to conference at Wannsee in Berlin held in 20. Januar 1942 by Reinhard Heydrich.
one of darkest moment of Mankind.

Very little impact. He was the most competent member of the top leadership
little impact ? one of his nickname were HHHH = Himmler Hirn Heißt Heydrich in eng: Himmler brain is called Heydrich.
His dead hat serious impact on Himmler decision making for rest of the war...
 
Those and question what to do with them? let to conference at Wannsee in Berlin held in 20. Januar 1942 by Reinhard Heydrich.

The Holocaust by bullets continued well after Wannsee and after the extermination camps had started operating (and the Wehrmacht was an active participant). This was even the case in occupied Poland. Operation Harvest Festival took place in November 1943. Christopher Browning writes about this in 'Ordinary Men'. And between 1942 and 1944, forty to sixty thousand people were murdered in a forest near Maly Trostinez through the use of gas vans or bullets.

The big extermination camps were not set up in say Ukraine or Belarus. Those were located in occupied Poland because that's where most of Europe's Jews lived and it was out of sight and out of mind enough to deport Jews from western Europe, Germany, southern/eastern Europe and later Hungary etc. there. Also the Wannsee Conference wasn't where the Final Solution was decided. That decision had already been made. Note that no Wehrmacht officer attended the conference despite their close involvement with the mass killings, just SS-police, the Party Chancellery and the ministerial bureaucracy. Most participants were state secretaries or roughly around that level. Very important players who had all been deeply complicit in anti-Jewish policy and persecution, but not people who could make such a decision on their own.

Hell, the Reichsbahn didn't participate, even though it was their trains that would be used to deport Jews en masse to the killing sites (and they'd get paid for it). Which means the logistics of genocide could only be discussed on a basic level. Likewise, many senior SS commanders who had been intimitately involved in the killings weren't participants. Probably because someone like Daluege or Jeckeln might been a rival for Heydrich because they weren't his subordinates and roughly held the same rank. Also ghettoisation did happen in the occupied Soviet territories, though not to the same extent as in occupied Poland. An example would be the Riga ghetto, which was wiped out. Another would be the Minsk ghetto, which was liquidated in late 1943. Officials in the General Government wanted to clear out their ghettos, and were frustrated by the fact that, of course, the officials in the eastern Rks didn't want to take in more Jews to 'relieve them of this burden'.

Longerich wrote a good study of the Wannsee Conference that's also available in English. Conspiracy is a good and very chilling movie, but frankly dramatises things and exaggerates how crucial the conference was.

little impact ? one of his nickname were HHHH = Himmler Hirn Heißt Heydrich in eng: Himmler brain is called Heydrich.

The idea that Himmler was Heydrich's stooge is popular history that has been thoroughly debunked by scholarly research. I'd recommend reading Longerich's Himmler or Gerwarth's Heydrich one. Both are available in English. Peter Black's Kaltenbrunner bio is also worth a read. Himmler was upset by Heydrich's death and it played a role in ramping up the killings. The operation to exterminate the Jews in the General Government was named after him...but that operation was going to be conducted anyway (and the extermination camps in the GG were run by Globocnik and the T4 network, Sara Berger has written an excellent book about them, though I think it's only available in German at the moment). If Himmler had been unable to function without him, he wouldn't have reached the height of his power in 1944. Not that it did him any good, but Heydrich's survival wouldn't have changed that.

The two had a partnership because they were men with complementary talents. Himmler was the 'visionary' who set the big goals, Heydrich turned them into actionable directives, brought in his own ideas and was an important part of his mentor's success, but didn't challenge Himmler's authority.

I worked in a research project on the Holocaust for several years. So while I'm absolutely no Longerich, Browning or Gerwarth, I'm very familiar with these horrible people.
 
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Didn't Heydrich fly in the first batch of German planes to reach Kristiansand for Operation Weserubung? And didn't he crash a plane on 13 May 1940 off Stavanger? Plus, the plane crash which almost made Heydrich captive could have killed him. Note that effects for all 3 "Heydrich dead by plane crash" scenarios should be similar to this thread, but without the prison term of Heydrich. Any Norwegian capture of Heydrich won't be very long nor long enough to kill Heydrich nor transfer Heydrich permanently out of Nazi German-controlled territory.
 
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I worked in a research project on the Holocaust for several years. So while I'm absolutely no Longerich, Browning or Gerwarth, I'm very familiar with these horrible people.
I've seen lots of your knowledgeable posts around. What sort of project was it?
 
Who do you think had the worse character between Himmler and Heydrich?

Uh, that's like trying to decide whether you'd rather die from cholera or the plague. They're not the same, but both are horrible.

I think the main difference is that Himmler considered himself to be a 'visionary'. By that I mean he brought in his own (poorly articulated and contradictory) ideas about what Nazism was about...though he could be very flexible when it suited his political purposes. Heydrich was no less of a Nazi fanatic than Himmler, who was basically his mentor. However, he was more comfortable as a man of action who turns abstract ideas into a (horrifying) reality.

On a personal level, Heydrich was ironically a more difficult boss to work for than Himmler. Basically, Himmler viewed himself as the 'patriarch' of the 'SS community of clans', and basically behaved like an overbearing father/schoolmaster, mixing punishment with fatherly praise. This is also reflected in his meddling in the private lives of his minions so that it reflected what he considered to be the 'SS ideal'. He was polite and proper in his dealings with his subordinates and Party colleagues, though kind of superficial and overly formulaic. Longerich postulates that he had an attachment disorder since he seems to have trouble maintaining relationships where he wasn't either the subordinate or the master. While not personally charismatic, he had a knack for picking subordinates who were capable at achieving the ends he wanted, but also had messed up in their past in some manner and thus needed a second chance. Globocnik, Eicke, and Heydrich are good examples.

By contrast, Heydrich seems to have had a temper and been quite impulsive, contrary to the popular image of him being an unemotional human calculator. We must obviously take the post-war testimonies of his former subordinates with a big grain of salt, but overall he comes across as very controlling and suspicious. That was one of the reasons for his falling out with Best, who'd been one of his closest collaborators during the '30s. Overall, he seems like the kind of boss subordinates would respect and to an extent admire, but not love. Like many members of the 'war youth generation', he had a complex about not having gotten the chance to fight in WW1 and earn 'martial glory', which is why he decided to play Luftwaffe pilot during WW2.

Also mildly amusing anecdote: When Himmler introduced Kaltenbrunner to the RSHA section heads as their new boss, he had nice things to say about him. Which is to be expected since Kaltenbrunner seems to have looked up to him at least back then and Himmler regarded him as a loyal protege. However, he spent most of said speech going on and on about the good times he and Heydrich had had together and what a nice guy the first RSHA chief had been. I can imagine that Kaltenbrunner felt really awkward during that part since his relations with Heydrich had been pretty bad.

I've seen lots of your knowledgeable posts around. What sort of project was it?

Thank you. Until last year I worked in a research project called 'The Persecution and Murder of the European Jews by Nazi Germany, 1933 - 1945'. It's a joint project between the Institute for Contemporary History (a German research institute), the University of Freiburg and the German Federal Archives, in cooperation with Yad Vashem. I'd be remiss if I didn't mention that my job was low-level, but I was involved in the creation of several volumes. Basically I helped with research and quality control.

Basically, the goal is to produce a multi-volume source edition covering both Germany as well as the countries that were occupied during the war. Each volume consists of several hundred primary source documents from the perspective of perpetrators, victims and bystanders. The German language edition was completed some time ago, while the English version is still being worked on. I think they're working on one of the volumes about Poland at the moment.
 
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It’s odd how the death camps were made to spare the Einsatzgruppen the stress of killing Jewish people en masse yet German forces didn’t have the same issue doing the same exact thing to Slavs in various reprisals and anti partisan campaigns over the course of years.
Reprisal killings were easier for the perpetrators to justify to themselves, as revenge is an innate tendency. It's why American colonists had so little compunction about waging wars against Indians as genocide. Shooting innocents without even a veneer of justification was heavier on the heart, so it was easier to get burned out on it, so to speak.
 
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TheSpectacledCloth

Gone Fishin'
You may already know this but there’s an anecdote where Heydrich is said to have described Himmler as half teacher and half sadist.
Talk about the pot calling the kettle black. Himmler was certainly pure evil, but even he had his limitations. He reportedly felt sick after seeing a live execution in Minsk.
 
He reportedly felt sick after seeing a live execution in Minsk.
He then gave a speech to the Einsatzgruppen about how their actions were gruesome but necessary and how great they were for performing grisly acts and remaining honorable and so on. In many respects Himmler was worse than Hitler because he had a far more hands on approach to the litany of atrocities the Reich was responsible for. It was his job to translate Hitler’s fever dreams into nightmarish reality.
 
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TheSpectacledCloth

Gone Fishin'
He then gave a speech to the Einsatzgruppen about how their actions were gruesome but necessary and how great they were for performing grisly acts and remaining honorable and so on. In many respects Himmler was worse than Hitler because he had a far more hands on approach to the litany of atrocities the Reich was responsible for. It was his job to translate Hitler’s fever dreams into nightmarish reality.
Absolutely! And what made Himmler so dangerous was his pragmatism and level of caution, which separated him from Hitler, Goebbels and even Heydrich. While Himmler had outlandish views, he knew better than to indulge in them too much publicly or to step on too many toes. And he knew better than to challenge the Wehrmacht outright unless he knew he could beat them.

Himmler would've been exceptionally dangerous in a victorious Third Reich TL, particularly in the Middle East. Because he would've most likely supported a Nasser-led Egypt and a Saadeh-led Syria, and Himmler would've sought to gather them and Jordan into an alliance. The purpose of this would not only for gaining a strong foothold on the Mediterranean, but to also invade Israel and complete the Final Solution with the Jewish populace (likely promising Egypt, Syria and Jordan significant economic and military aid in exchange for participating in the sinister deed).

The point is that Himmler's success stemmed from the fact he was both ruthless and meticulous, while not being nearly as reckless or having as much hubris as Heydrich.
 
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