Reforms to the Spartan System

[LordTerra]

Now i'm not an expert on Ancient Greece, though i do have a decent amount of knowledge on some of the city states. The basic idea is a reform to Spartans class/citizenship system. At the base Spartan classes are:

Homoioi: The equal Spartan citizens

Perioeci: The trader and manufacturer class. These were considered 'free-men' but they werent considered 'citizens' though they were allowed the serve in the Spartan military like the navy or as a support soldiers. This class also include the people of allied and subjugated city-states.

Heloites: The serfs working the plots of land supplying the equals.

Now a big issue for Sparta and one of the reasons they declined was being unable to fully recover from losses in wars/revolts.

The idea i had is that a system of 'Citizenship for Service' is enacted at some point in Spartan history where the Perioeci can become equal Spartan citizens if they serve several years in the military. Now they may not be considered 'fully equal' by the original Spartans, possibly like the 'lower lords' of the future Feudal system, they are equal but not as equal as those who has been Spartan citizens for generations longer. This could allow Sparta to recover from manpower losses much easier and faster than normal.


Additionally another idea that any 'Heloites' who are 'loyal' during any Helot revolt can be advance to thew Perioeci class but this would be a very rare thing to occur. I know this second part is even more but unlikely but curious if it could happen.

Any idea if this is a viable idea?

 

[Lucius Verus]

Well a Spartan requires in addition to going through training (which name escapes me right now) at the end of which there is a vote which one has to pass a Spartan is required to own land and have his own slaves to equip and support him. So the amount of people who can potentially join must be wealthy/well off enough in the first place since the state does not pay for provisions in its Spartan manner. That's just the process of getting them trained and voted in. One of the problems was that as soldiers died, their land became consolidated in the hands of women and the wealthy. Generally any expansion of the number of Spartans requires either a reform of the way the military pays its soldiers, land reform, or conquest of additional land. Generally I'm for the Roman model, professional military backed by political endurance with war funded by war itself.

 

[phil03]

Now i'm not an expert on Ancient Greece, though i do have a decent amount of knowledge on some of the city states. The basic idea is a reform to Spartans class/citizenship system. At the base Spartan classes are:

Homoioi: The equal Spartan citizens

Perioeci: The trader and manufacturer class. These were considered 'free-men' but they werent considered 'citizens' though they were allowed the serve in the Spartan military like the navy or as a support soldiers. This class also include the people of allied and subjugated city-states.

Heloites: The serfs working the plots of land supplying the equals.

Now a big issue for Sparta and one of the reasons they declined was being unable to fully recover from losses in wars/revolts.

The idea i had is that a system of 'Citizenship for Service' is enacted at some point in Spartan history where the Perioeci can become equal Spartan citizens if they serve several years in the military. Now they may not be considered 'fully equal' by the original Spartans, possibly like the 'lower lords' of the future Feudal system, they are equal but not as equal as those who has been Spartan citizens for generations longer. This could allow Sparta to recover from manpower losses much easier and faster than normal.


Additionally another idea that any 'Heloites' who are 'loyal' during any Helot revolt can be advance to thew Perioeci class but this would be a very rare thing to occur. I know this second part is even more but unlikely but curious if it could happen.

Any idea if this is a viable idea?

Well, the first part is, at least partially OTL: the Perioeci where considered ''spartans'' in all things except that they couldnt participate in the pûbloc office and hold public office. Appart from that they where under the same obligations and had the same rights then the Homoio.

The second one is ASB in anything more then anecdotal cases as the very purposes of the whole spartan system was to ensure its continual dominance of Messenia (most of the heloites where messenians) despite the (ever-growing) numerical superiority of the messenians. Beside, you need a huge slaves population to support to whole system that made the Homoioi and their military training in the first place.

The basic problem of Sparta IMO is that the very system of the Agoges that the Homoioi goes through, what made Sparta what she was and gave her her military might, pushed the ruling class in a demographic spiral.

Some reforms can slow down the process but at the end of the day its impossible to truly stop it without dismantling the Agoges and therefore destroying what made Sparta particular.

 

[LordTerra]

I realize the second part(on the advancement of the occasional Heloities to Perioeci) would be extremely unlikely. I meant the 2nd part as an extreme rarity, depending more on the personality of the King/Noble at the time rather than any big actions preformed by the 'Loyalist'.

 

[phil03]

I realize the second part(on the advancement of the occasional Heloities to Perioeci) would be extremely unlikely. I meant the 2nd part as an extreme rarity, depending more on the personality of the King/Noble at the time rather than any big actions preformed by the 'Loyalist'.

Its more then unlikely, 1) You just need a huge quantity of Helotes to support each Homoioi, to give them such promotion will undermine the very foundations of the Spartan system. 2) The spartans where deadly afraid, paranoid even, that the Helotes would rise and kill them all (witch they attempted to do). Any kind of afranchisement by any helotes would take allot, and I meant allot, of circumstances to come as any former helotes now freed and capable to learn warcraft (The Perioci where supposed to serve in the spartan forces) could then help their fellow messenians still in boundage rise in revolt.

The only example of Heloite afranchisement I can think of where the Brasidei, the soldiers that went with Brasidas on is expedition north to Amphipolis. Even then, the idea was that they would either die or settle in the North, far from Sparta and Messenia. When they emerged victorious but where forced to abandon their conquest in the peace of Nicias with Athens and then came back to Pelopone the Spartan did their utmost to put them on the front line in every battle to kill them of as quickly as possible.

I am sorry to destroy your idea but the reform you propose just can't go with Sparta vision of the world and are, if not ASB then almost so.