Red Spies in the White House: An Alternate Cold War

[lukedalton]

And how long did it last IRL? The moment Togliatti hit the bucket, the PCI broke off with Moscow (something that many members had already suggested in 1956).

Even the PCF (arguably the most pro-Moscow party in Europe) dropped the Stalinist line in 1958.

Again, the idea of Stalin being able to control all these Comunist Parties is impossible. Moscow has no troops in these territories, and can't invade them.

Togliatti died in 1964 and the PCR dropped the Stalinist line in 1958...ok what happened between 1945 and 1958/64? Not only Stalin was long dead but Hungary (and other revolts) and Krushev talk happened...as i pointed out in my post as event that can make the local communist go much more independent
Unfortunely we are not talking about OTL or ITTL 1958/64 but the here and now and the current leadership is Stalinist and totally devoted to Uncle Joe and ready to litteraly sell their nations in the immediate because they truly truly believe that in the long run will create the communist paradise, frankly there will be easy to call the brotherly soviet troops to help support the people democracy from the reactionary enemy and at this stage, is irrilevant that there is no direct border between the Red Army and other nation...after all who will stop them? The american? Not at the moment (hell they will probably help the red army); the British? How?

Togliatti can be Tito brother's but if Stalin say that he is no more persona grata in the communist world, Palimiro will sell him in a picosecond

Sorry but your entire premise is that the PCI (and the others) were somewhat related to one that we grown up in term of independence and general politics, nope the one that we deal one are all pre Krushev era and so are full high on the Stalinist kool aid and even people like Longo are in serious danger

 

[Gen.Jurten]

] It was only when Germany invaded the Soviet Union in 1941 that French communists actively began to organize a resistance effort

Emphasize 'after Barbarossa'

Before that, the protest splinter would count equally as the one sabotaging French ammunition plants during Fall Blau. Both are not followed by the PCF at large.

As such, they are collaborators, only somewhat better than the Vichyites

 

[BorderLeiscester]

Nice to see someone address the massive elephant in the room of the Morgenthau Plan that it comes off as a cartoonishly nazi depiction of jewish revenge against Germany and the horrible consequences of such.

 

[Catalunya]

Unfortunely we are not talking about OTL or ITTL 1958/64 but the here and now and the current leadership is Stalinist and totally devoted to Uncle Joe and ready to litteraly sell their nations in the immediate because they truly truly believe that in the long run will create the communist paradise, frankly there will be easy to call the brotherly soviet troops to help support the people democracy from the reactionary enemy and at this stage, is irrilevant that there is no direct border between the Red Army and other nation...after all who will stop them? The american? Not at the moment (hell they will probably help the red army); the British? How?

Togliatti can be Tito brother's but if Stalin say that he is no more persona grata in the communist world, Palimiro will sell him in a picosecond

Sorry but your entire premise is that the PCI (and the others) were somewhat related to one that we grown up in term of independence and general politics, nope the one that we deal one are all pre Krushev era and so are full high on the Stalinist kool aid and even people like Longo are in serious danger

This premise that the PCI of the 40s and 50s was just the Italian version of the Stalin fanclub is just bizarre. In 1948 the PCI was still very well respected by the Italian left, and Togliatti even led the Popular Front that election, while the French (centre-)left had already opted to cooperate with the centre-right over the PCF by then. Togliatti was also just a very skilled politician that kept the PC as Italy’s second biggest party, while communists in other NATO countries were struggling.

I think it’s fair to say that a party that would have the support of at least 35% of the voting population, be the favorite party of the national labour movement, be led by a man respected throughout the communist world, and be in coalition with a non-communist socialist party would not be puppetized by Stalin. Even if Stalin did assassinate Togliatti, or someone else to send a message, the PSI and plenty of moderate PCI members would be running towards a centrist coalition with the DC, which would kill the Italian communist government. It’s simply not in Stalin’s interest to attempt to force Togliatti and the PCI to play by his tune. Same with the PCF, though that one is slightly more down to France still being a great power.

Your characterization of Stalin also does not really work with what the man was actually like. He was incredibly cautious on the international scale, to the point that even men like Qavam absolutely played him. A scenario where France and Italy have governments with Cominform members as senior partners, and Germany is even weaker than OTL, would force Stalin into a more hands-off position, which would likely mean that Tito wouldn’t be vilified by the communist world like OTL, but also that the Czechoslovak government couldn’t self-coup.

 

[Gar48]

This premise that the PCI of the 40s and 50s was just the Italian version of the Stalin fanclub is just bizarre. In 1948 the PCI was still very well respected by the Italian left, and Togliatti even led the Popular Front that election, while the French (centre-)left had already opted to cooperate with the centre-right over the PCF by then. Togliatti was also just a very skilled politician that kept the PC as Italy’s second biggest party, while communists in other NATO countries were struggling.

I think it’s fair to say that a party that would have the support of at least 35% of the voting population, be the favorite party of the national labour movement, be led by a man respected throughout the communist world, and be in coalition with a non-communist socialist party would not be puppetized by Stalin. Even if Stalin did assassinate Togliatti, or someone else to send a message, the PSI and plenty of moderate PCI members would be running towards a centrist coalition with the DC, which would kill the Italian communist government. It’s simply not in Stalin’s interest to attempt to force Togliatti and the PCI to play by his tune. Same with the PCF, though that one is slightly more down to France still being a great power.

Your characterization of Stalin also does not really work with what the man was actually like. He was incredibly cautious on the international scale, to the point that even men like Qavam absolutely played him. A scenario where France and Italy have governments with Cominform members as senior partners, and Germany is even weaker than OTL, would force Stalin into a more hands-off position, which would likely mean that Tito wouldn’t be vilified by the communist world like OTL, but also that the Czechoslovak government couldn’t self-coup.

Do you think that Togliatti's death was the only reason why the PCI broke off with the USSR? That somehow Berlinguer randomly showed up one day and forced the PCI to drop the Soviet line from one day to another?

Giuseppe Di Vittorio, leader of the CGIL, called for less Soviet influence in the PCI as early as 1938. Luigi Longo basically dragged a screaming Togliatti into the alliance with the PSI in 1948.

The PCF was in the exact same situation, even before Hungary. And ITTL they are sharing powers with the French Socialists.

I do agree that there is a strong Pro-Soviet sentiment among European communists at this point of the TL. But it doesn't mean all of Europe is going to turn into a Soviet Puppet.

Not only this idea ignores historical facts, but it is also ignores a lot of narrative possibilities

 

[Gar48]

Emphasize 'after Barbarossa'

Before that, the protest splinter would count equally as the one sabotaging French ammunition plants during Fall Blau. Both are not followed by the PCF at large.

As such, they are collaborators, only somewhat better than the Vichyites

In May 1941 they call for a national resistance against the Nazis to support De Gaulle

 

[lukedalton]

This premise that the PCI of the 40s and 50s was just the Italian version of the Stalin fanclub is just bizarre. In 1948 the PCI was still very well respected by the Italian left, and Togliatti even led the Popular Front that election, while the French (centre-)left had already opted to cooperate with the centre-right over the PCF by then. Togliatti was also just a very skilled politician that kept the PC as Italy’s second biggest party, while communists in other NATO countries were struggling.

Togliatti worked with other? Sure, there were the need to free Italy and the red army was not there only the Wallies...and they were the one that were given logistical support to the resistance so collaboration was the order of the day and yes it was a skilled politician. All that doesn't negate the fact that was a Stalin fanboy that toe Moscow line if he had the possibility....hell he condemned the Hungarian in 1956 to dare revolting against the light of the workers movement, he happily supported Tito getting Trieste, so i don't expect much contrast with the URSS and in this scenario there is even less reason to him to not toe totally Moscow line

Your characterization of Stalin also does not really work with what the man was actually like. He was incredibly cautious on the international scale, to the point that even men like Qavam absolutely played him. A scenario where France and Italy have governments with Cominform members as senior partners, and Germany is even weaker than OTL, would force Stalin into a more hands-off position, which would likely mean that Tito wouldn’t be vilified by the communist world like OTL, but also that the Czechoslovak government couldn’t self-coup.

He was cautious? Sure...when he faced opposition, better remember the plethora of crisis in the immediate second postwar and sure he backed down but only when someone confronted him, otherwise his modus operandi was to push and see if he get away with something...and ITTL at the moment he hold all the cards in Europe and frankly Stalin being forced to a more hands-off position because his stooges (and sorry but at the moment the PCF and the PCI are that) get senior position seem a little absurd and very out of character.

And yes he had not supported the Greeks communist during the civil war...because he don't want a direct confrontation with the Wallies and frankly the lesson was clear for the rest of free europe communist party regarding what happen to the one that don't toe Uncle Joe line; ITTL what are the risk for the URSS and Stalin? Only now the USA are beginning to try to oppose him, have an enormous disadvantage and a complicated internal situation due to 'President traitor'

 

[Catalunya]

there is even less reason to him to not toe totally Moscow line

But why would he continue to toe the line when it is not in the interest of his government, his party, and himself? Does Togliatti think Stalin is the secular reincarnation of Christ? No, there is simply no reason for him to toe the Moscow line more than he has to do (and he’ll make sure even that isn’t much). Togliatti, Thorez, Duclos and many other (Western) Stalinists were quite the opportunists, so now that they are at the helm of a great power / regional power, why would they continue to be Stalin’s errand boys?

 

[Mitridates the Great]

But why would he continue to toe the line when it is not in the interest of his government, his party, and himself? Does Togliatti think Stalin is the secular reincarnation of Christ? No, there is simply no reason for him to toe the Moscow line more than he has to do (and he’ll make sure even that isn’t much). Togliatti, Thorez, Duclos and many other (Western) Stalinists were quite the opportunists, so now that they are at the helm of a great power / regional power, why would they continue to be Stalin’s errand boys?

Because, along with "every person accused of being a Soviet spy is effectively a Soviet spy",

another working rule implicit in this TL is

"Every communist movement in the world will recognize Stalin, and failing that the Soviet Union, as its Supreme Leader, and will follow all your orders without question, regardless of how realistic or (un)practical it is to do so."

 

[Gar48]

But why would he continue to toe the line when it is not in the interest of his government, his party, and himself? Does Togliatti think Stalin is the secular reincarnation of Christ? No, there is simply no reason for him to toe the Moscow line more than he has to do (and he’ll make sure even that isn’t much). Togliatti, Thorez, Duclos and many other (Western) Stalinists were quite the opportunists, so now that they are at the helm of a great power / regional power, why would they continue to be Stalin’s errand boys?

Also IRL Stalin was smart enough to support other communists, even if he couldn't control them.

He did back Mao, even if he couldn't totally control him simply because leaving China to Chiang would have been too dangerous for Moscow's interests.

Even his hatred for Tito was more motivated by the impression that Yugoslavia was opening to the West rather than just random paranoia.

 

[Gar48]

Because, along with "every person accused of being a Soviet spy is effectively a Soviet spy",

another working rule implicit in this TL is

"Every communist movement in the world will recognize Stalin, and failing that the Soviet Union, as its Supreme Leader, and will follow all your orders without question, regardless of how realistic or (un)practical it is to do so."

Tbf the author of the TL still hasn't shown us if Togliatti and company will follow Stalin's orders.

It is only a random poster repeating the same line for months

 

[lukedalton]

But why would he continue to toe the line when it is not in the interest of his government, his party, and himself? Does Togliatti think Stalin is the secular reincarnation of Christ?

The answer is yes, damned yes, the same reason why people like Molotov, his wife and all the old bolshevick even after being sent to the Gulag and Stalin was dead, think of him of a genius...because they have gone too far, done too much and be too deep in the system to think otherwise...for this reason Krushev secret talk was so epocal, so game changing, it was like saying that Jesus was a fucking jerk that faked his miracles while trying to get people in paradise.
For a lot of them, communism at this stage is more akin to a secular religion than a political ideology.
Sure there were exception, but many of them are no more in the realm of the living or of the political relevant and they are very very prone to be ostracizated if the occasion arise.

Tbf the author of the TL still hasn't shown us if Togliatti and company will follow Stalin's orders.

It is only a random poster repeating the same line for months

Because the random poster know his history and that is the most realistic way Il migliore will have behaved in this scenario; sure in this Timeline we have the President of the USA act like a soviet viceroy without any real check and balance so almost anything can happen. Sorry but if Togliatti suddenly die and Longo or another moderate take control of the party after a serious struggle, well a PCI that try to mantain a certain distance from Moscow and be independent, is credible but with the current leadership? Nope

 

[lukedalton]

Do you think that Togliatti's death was the only reason why the PCI broke off with the USSR? That somehow Berlinguer randomly showed up one day and forced the PCI to drop the Soviet line from one day to another?

Yep there were Longo and from him it come Berlinguer, but at the moment are second fiddle (the first) and irrilevant (the second) and also better remember that it's not that in RL Enrico Berlinguer was this all loved leader that everyone in the PCI followed with a smile, a sizeble part of the party loathed him deeply for his position.
Sure in RL with Italy getting the Marshall plan, the USA supporting us (and the DC) and giving us protection from the soviet and the PCI not being capable of take control of the country with force even if all united for this purpose, in the end the PCI developed an independent streak but to really flourish it needed, years of reconstruction, Krushev and Hungary.
ITTL we have the USA basically giving the URSS whatever they want, the PCI getting more power and entrenched more in the state apparatus while the DC is forced to accept it or Italy don't get help, the red army looming all over Europe, etc. etc. etc. basically it's a stalinist hardliner dream, so why Togliatti and all others feel the need to entertain Longo group too much? Hell if i was Longo i will be a little worried and i will not accept any invitation on the worker's paradise

 

[Catalunya]

The answer is yes, damned yes, the same reason why people like Molotov, his wife and all the old bolshevick even after being sent to the Gulag and Stalin was dead, think of him of a genius...because they have gone too far, done too much and be too deep in the system to think otherwise...for this reason Krushev secret talk was so epocal, so game changing, it was like saying that Jesus was a fucking jerk that faked his miracles while trying to get people in paradise.
For a lot of them, communism at this stage is more akin to a secular religion than a political ideology.

Togliatti spent much less time than Molotov with Stalin though. He’s much less likely to believe himself into the lie they feed the masses, and that is if you consider Molotov as being brainwashed rather than attempting to secure his own political legacy, which started and ended with Stalin. Why was Khrushchev, who was arguably even closer and more reliant on Stalin than Molotov, able to publish the secret speech? He went even deeper in the system, but came out ‘sane’. Your portrayal of every big name ML of that time as a Stalin fanatic just does not make much sense both psychologically and historically.

Also to most of those guys communism was indeed basically a secular religion, as I assume they all believed in Marxist dialectics, but there is obviously more to it than just what ol’ Joe thought dialectics exactly entailed.

 

[Gar48]

Because the random poster know his history and that is the most realistic way Il

You literally accused the PCF of collaborating with the Nazis yesterday.

Your knowlege is either incomplete or isn't as neutral as you like to claim.


I am not even going to bother responding to your other post. It is clear you won't change your mind and I am tired of constantly derailing this thread

 

[lukedalton]

You literally accused the PCF of collaborating with the Nazis yesterday.

Your knowlege is either incomplete or isn't as neutral as you like to claim.


I am not even going to bother responding to your other post. It is clear you won't change your mind and I am tired of constantly derailing this thread

Never said i'm neutral only that i know my history, i frankly loath Togliatti as the stalinist he was and yep the PCF (or part of it collaborated with the Nazist first by sabotaging the war effort before the invasion and later by trying to act neutral and hope to get permission to exist in their occupation zone...the fact that they acted against Vichy is more an French internal politic affair and

For the rest, well i'm also tired and if you believe that the 1946 PCI was that independent from Moscow political party that in this situation will have not toe totally Stalin line so to follow the light of the workers, ok, i personally have a total different opinion that's more on line on how the PCI under Togliatti behaved in that period and as i pointed out many many time THAT period, aka they apex of Stalinist influence , later things changed due to various reason both internal to Italy than external

Also to most of those guys communism was indeed basically a secular religion, as I assume they all believed in Marxist dialectics, but there is obviously more to it than just what ol’ Joe thought dialectics exactly entailed.

Krushev more than Sane (he was also a bastard with a lot of blood in his hand) was very pragmatic and know that the system can't continue this way and frankly after decades of Uncle Joe rule, everybody wanted something more rational and he decided to break from the past...understimating the effect of his words in general.
And yes, for a lot of communist, Marxist dialectics was that Joe thought dialectics exactely entailed, the man eliminated the competition in this area and done a throughtfull work of propaganda...it was more or less like in Italy where fascist was whatever Benny said it was fascist

 

[Amon34]

please could you stop this discussion about communist parties (it's going round in circles)

 

[WolframandHart]

please could you stop this discussion about communist parties (it's going round in circles)

Yeah the best thing to do with this TL is to treat it like one of the Mirror Universe Star Trek's where everyone is a carton moustache twirling villain

 

[Mitridates the Great]

Yeah the best thing to do with this TL is to treat it like one of the Mirror Universe Star Trek's where everyone is a carton moustache twirling villain

I would say that this is a bit excessive, but it is still true that one of the premises is that everyone is firmly committed to communism in its Soviet variant.

 

[Aluma]

I would say that this is a bit excessive, but it is still true that one of the premises is that everyone is firmly committed to communism in its Soviet variant.

Pretty much, its a worst case scenario and nothing wrong with that