Red Spies in the White House: An Alternate Cold War

[lukedalton]

Lastly, I think that a lot of people don’t realize that in many cases the US was already supporting the ‘bad guys’ during the OTL Cold War. Literally every third world proxy conflict is between some USSR-backed pro-civil rights guy with like a few bad opinions against a US-backed group that would make Mussolini blush. Even in Eastern Europe, one of the very few regions the US had the moral high ground, the non-communists of the 1940s and 50s were far from great guys. The US ITTL would still largely support the same guys it did OTL, but would be even more unapologetic about it.

Sorry but better remember that the USSR- backed pro civil right guy that won usually once onpower become also the type that will make Mussolini blush or make D'Annunzio look moderate and sane.
Oh and just to put think in constest at the moment with Italy more on the left and the communist controlling the nation, well the dissapearing and homicide of people that the communist not liked that characterizated my region ( called in this context the 'Red Triangle of Death' )it will up to eleven and expanded in all Italy.

 

[Mitridates the Great]

And in many countries like Spain the only significant difference between a communist government and what we got in OTL could be summed up as "those who were shot in OTL would become in TTL those in charge of shooting those who in OTL would become the murderers for political reasons".

 

[Catalunya]

Sorry but better remember that the USSR- backed pro civil right guy that won usually once onpower become also the type that will make Mussolini blush or make D'Annunzio look moderate and sane.
Oh and just to put think in constest at the moment with Italy more on the left and the communist controlling the nation, well the dissapearing and homicide of people that the communist not liked that characterizated my region ( called in this context the 'Red Triangle of Death' )it will up to eleven and expanded in all Italy.

Like who? Which communist leader was worse than Mussolini? And not to delve into whataboutism, but the violence inflicted by the far-right in Italy post-45 is much worse than the far-left’s. It were after all the Gladio boys that attempted to implement a coup every five minutes.

And in many countries like Spain the only significant difference between a communist government and what we got in OTL could be summed up as "those who were shot in OTL would become in TTL those in charge of shooting those who in OTL would become the murderers for political reasons".

When exactly did Spain have a communist government? The only period when the Spanish left did really fucked up shit was during the Civil War, but that’s what happens when the social contract is thoroughly broken, and everyone in the nation is fighting each other.

also this post just reeks of ‘both sides bad’.

 

[lukedalton]

Like who? Which communist leader was worse than Mussolini? And not to delve into whataboutism, but the violence inflicted by the far-right in Italy post-45 is much worse than the far-left’s. It were after all the Gladio boys that attempted to implement a coup every five minutes.

Castro, Gheddafi, Che Guevara, Mungabe, Menghistsu, etc. etc. Honestly you it's easier say who isn't become a corrupt bloodthirsty dictator
Much worse? Sorry pal but between the Red brigade (and all the other leftist little group) during the years of lead and the lower existimated numbers of death just in Emilia Romagna (15.000) plus the killing of various non communist partisan group in the North East, the Togliatti agreement of leaving the italian pow in the tender care of the URSS prison camp due to electoral reason (they have put a very unflattery image of the URSS) and the accusation and aggression of the istrian refugee to be fascist (after all if they are poor normal citizens the violence agaisnt them and selling Istria to Tito is no good) it's hard to say that with a straight face.
Regarding coup, there were theoretically two and i say theoretically because one we were not even sure that was really attempted (Piano Solo) and the second was basically a farcical failure (Borghese Coup)

 

[Aluma]

I really don’t think it is in Stalin’s interest to let the entire German nation starve out. The Morgenthau Plan is gonna seriously fuck up Germany, but I could easily imagine Stalin not pursuing the program in the Soviet-occupied zone. I’m not saying they’ll have the capabilities to feed the entirety of Germany, but I could easily see East Germany becoming the place to go for Germans, as Stalin would at least give them enough calories to not die (and safety from roving bandits and all that).

Agreed

The entire problem with this scenario in the first place is that it portrays a very complex actor like White as a simple communist puppet (seriously one of the main architects of Bretton Woods would not act in this way).

Also agree

The problem is that people expect this America to either shift into a Nazi country, despite the fact that it literally just bled millions of lives to the fascist scourge,

Not a fault of the audience, we saw a glimpse of the future and America goes Nazi
Thats exactly what was shown
Besides all those veterans who fought the "nazi scourge" now are led to believe thanks to White that Patton was right, they fought the wrong enemy, they commited genocide against their "German brothers" at the direction of the "evil jews" who for them are the true nazis now

The idea that the american elite who at this point in time was always racist and never fully trusted jewish people(but happily took their mobey thank you very much) and saw blacks, hispanics(catholics in general) and asians as below cant go full Reich also astonishes me, it really makes me feel people here really buy into american exceptionalism to the point of denial

also this post just reeks of ‘both sides bad

And? The "other side" literally has Stalin as the ruler of the Communist World thanks to White, they ARE evil
Just ask Cambodia and Ukraine what they're all about

Unless you're refering to the current OTL "two sides" in which case this is modern politics and we should have none of it here

Regardless, brushing the crimes of the spanish left during the civil war off as "it was a war, everyone was going all out! This wont happen if they were in power!" is in very poor taste and reeks something much worse than "both sides bad", we already seen what a anticlerical left can do in power in a spanish speaking country(Mexico) thank you very much and what the red spaniards did was NOT out of character, it is precisely what they in power would look like and stating that is not supporting or excusing the actions of Franco which in this timeline is literally embracing the Nazis

 

[Fratsup]

I mean even if the US goes full antisemitic it would be nowhere near Nazi levels simply due to the Jewish population being much lower. Even if we include Blacks as another group that is hated they are still a minority at this point.
Really this US could just force the Jews to emigrate along with some of the African American population without resorting to genocide.

Also I do believe that the US even if it's bad as people say will find allies. Being dominant by the Soviets is only going to go cause resentment and considering how the US has the major advantage in population, resources, and technology there would be nations willing to side with them.

 

[Aluma]

Yeah I do agree that I dont see any Holocaust 2.0 happening

Questions about american morality and minority demographics aside, I find the idea of any country being that dedicated to wasting resources in killing people like Germany did very difficult to grasp, specially if we go by the steriotype of the US being capitalist and practical-minded
It'd be a huge loss of money

 

[Mitridates the Great]

When exactly did Spain have a communist government? The only period when the Spanish left did really fucked up shit was during the Civil War, but that’s what happens when the social contract is thoroughly broken, and everyone in the nation is fighting each other.

also this post just reeks of ‘both sides bad’.

Hmm, actually yes.

I understand that it can be psychologically very comfortable to assume that when people on the left commit horrendous acts they do so "for a legitimate good reason, really!" or that "anyway, the other side had to deserve this! They're that bad!".

Except that sometimes it happens that you have someone very bad and someone just as bad on the other side, and the main reason one of them is considered more evil is because they were the one who was left standing and therefore had the most time. to commit horrible acts (in this particular case it helps a lot that the side that was left standing is also the one that started the war).

As for "everyone was fighting and the social contract was broken" it doesn't sound too different from "selective use of context".

That is, stating that the fact that someone you dislike does something evil is inescapable proof of their evil, but if someone you like does something equally evil "hey hey hey, context context, everyone was like that, you can't pretend to blame him for something that was widespread."

 

[Mitridates the Great]

Agreed

Also agree

Not a fault of the audience, we saw a glimpse of the future and America goes Nazi
Thats exactly what was shown
Besides all those veterans who fought the "nazi scourge" now are led to believe thanks to White that Patton was right, they fought the wrong enemy, they commited genocide against their "German brothers" at the direction of the "evil jews" who for them are the true nazis now

The idea that the american elite who at this point in time was always racist and never fully trusted jewish people(but happily took their mobey thank you very much) and saw blacks, hispanics(catholics in general) and asians as below cant go full Reich also astonishes me, it really makes me feel people here really buy into american exceptionalism to the point of denial

And? The "other side" literally has Stalin as the ruler of the Communist World thanks to White, they ARE evil
Just ask Cambodia and Ukraine what they're all about

Unless you're refering to the current OTL "two sides" in which case this is modern politics and we should have none of it here

Regardless, brushing the crimes of the spanish left during the civil war off as "it was a war, everyone was going all out! This wont happen if they were in power!" is in very poor taste and reeks something much worse than "both sides bad", we already seen what a anticlerical left can do in power in a spanish speaking country(Mexico) thank you very much and what the red spaniards did was NOT out of character, it is precisely what they in power would look like and stating that is not supporting or excusing the actions of Franco which in this timeline is literally embracing the Nazis

Also this and also Add I'm not thinking in modern things (In fact I'm not sure about what "two sides" Aluma says, you can tell me for PM please?)

And I also have no interest in supporting either the OTL version of Franco or of course the TTL version, which in fact I described as crazier and more evil than ours, and that his government will undoubtedly be even worse.

 

[Mitridates the Great]

On the subject of "the United States exterminating people" I think I am partly to blame for that misunderstanding because of the comment that the United States would PROBABLY (of probability, I mean, "maybe they do") take over the Portuguese Colonial Empire and start a Generalplan Ost there (in Portuguese Colonial Africa, NOT in United States) "because economy". What is more likely than "White-supremacism-obsessed US forgets they considered Portuguese as non-white and happily trades with them as equals".

Which was meant to make irony of the very common tendency here to assume that countries will make all kinds of stupid and illogical decisions "because of economics" and that this will be accepted as valid "because of economics."

But I agree that a Nazi version of America probably wouldn't want to set up death camps and dump their minorities there to die. They would surely prefer to enslave the "not white enough" to make them work hard for the good of the American economy. And yet they would probably prefer to just deport them to "cleanse the country of those who hate it."

 

[SuperZtar64]

That is, stating that the fact that someone you dislike does something evil is inescapable proof of their evil, but if someone you like does something equally evil "hey hey hey, context context, everyone was like that, you can't pretend to blame him for something that was widespread."

When my side does evil things, we have a good reason. When the other side does evil things, it is proof of how evil they are.

 

[Ramontxo]

And in many countries like Spain the only significant difference between a communist government and what we got in OTL could be summed up as "those who were shot in OTL would become in TTL those in charge of shooting those who in OTL would become the murderers for political reasons".

Spain, under Franco, and the Soviet Union political regimes were strikingly similar. Paternalistic dictatorships with an overburocratized state where being an oppositor varied at different times from being an spectacularly bad idea (from the point of view of your chances to get old) to just a bad one.

 

[Gar48]

Talking about Italy, you know ho could try to start a coup ITTL? Mario Scelba, one of our longest serving Ministers of the Interior

We are talking about a guy who OTL accused Catholic priests of Communist sympathies, tried to cover up act of intimidations/violence against leftists and was obsessed ith the idea that a communist takeover was imminent.

If the Popular Front ends up being too popular, I can see Scelba doing something very radical to "save" Italy.

Much worse? Sorry pal but between the Red brigade (and all the other leftist little group) during the years of lead and the lower existimated numbers of death ju

The Station of Bologna, Piazza della Loggia , the Italicus Train and Piazza Fontana say Hi.

Also if the attempted coups were really so disorganised, why were our secret services recreated from scratch just to assure more civilian control over them?

What about P2? Or the evidences that Andreotti let Moro die just to keep Berlinguer out of the government?

I do realise it is a delicate argument. But maybe we should stop pretending the Communists were the only ones killing people for idiotic reasons during the Years of Lead.

e accusation and aggression of the istrian refugee to be fascist (after all if they are poor normal citizens the violence agaisnt them and selling Istria to Tito is no good)

One of the key reasons why Rome had to be quiet about the Foibe massacres was because Washington wanted Tito as an ally. The government who literally closed the refugees in unsafe and unstable refugee camps was controlled by the Christian Democrats.

Again I am not denying the faults of the Communist in this (Togliatti was a dick). I am just pointing out that fucking up the internal situation so much was the result of teamwork between all our political parties.

Castro, Gheddafi, Che Guevara, Mungabe, Menghistsu, etc. etc

They were cunts but I find difficoult to believe that they are worse than the man who joined the Holocaust just to gain some piece of land in Africa and the Balkans. Also I don't know you, but I think comparing dictators is kinda stupid.

The whole "Sure this dude was a cruel maniac but it was better than the other one" thing sounds pointless. After all I could name South Africa, Batista, Ne Win or Ngo Diem just to name a few and say that they are worse than your examples.

We could go all day long naming the genocidal dictators Washington and Moscow supported between 1945 and 1989.

Shit the US supported an actual Communist in Cambogia just to deprieve the Soviets of influence in the region (you know the guy who hated people having glasses or living in cities).

ated numbers of death just in Emilia Romagna (15.000) plus the killing of various non communist partisan group in the North East

You are right the Italian Communists commited atrocities before and after the civil war. I don' t see how this excuses or legittimates all the other lunatics we cut a deal with during the Cold War or somehow makes Mussolini better.

It is of course pointless. This country has been having the same conversation for more than 50 years at this point.

 

[lukedalton]

You are right the Italian Communists commited atrocities before and after the civil war. I don' t see how this excuses or legittimates all the other lunatics we cut a deal with during the Cold War or somehow makes Mussolini better.

It is of course pointless. This country has been having the same conversation for more than 50 years at this point.

It don't legitimate and yes compare dictatorship is useless but i answered to a post who basically pointed out how the USA always supported the bad guys that made look Mussolini tame against the poor innocent people who only wanted promote civil right; i simple said that was not so simple and basically almost all the heroes of the decolonizations and freedom fighters later become corrupt dictators themselfs and in the case of Italy well at the moment Togliatti and co. are busy making people vanish and due to their increased influence the OTL numbers is greatly increased....hell my grandgrandfather is probably dead ITTL as it was an anarchist-communist that was kicked out of the party for his less than flatterly opinion of Stalin
And the name i made were not cunt, the right definition is homicidial bastard and while they have not partecipated in something terrible like the Holocaust they have committed their fair share of crime and abuse, invasion and war crimes.

Also if the attempted coups were really so disorganised, why were our secret services recreated from scratch just to assure more civilian control over them?

What about P2? Or the evidences that Andreotti let Moro die just to keep Berlinguer out of the government?

I do realise it is a delicate argument. But maybe we should stop pretending the Communists were the only ones killing people for idiotic reasons during the Years of Lead.

Because expecting a normal and restrained reaction from any of our government is ridicolous? Expecially if pressed by the media to do something.
The evidence regarding Andreotti letting Moro die is more earseay and the fact that nobody liked (with good reason) Andreotti and what's this? Number 128489450 of the many mystery of Italy that are never every fully resolved becauese suddenly there are 'incredible revelation' and because there is always the Grande Vecchio or something else/one behind the curtain? Same for the P2. Honestly this national obsession for cheap conspiracies theory that in reality don't go anywhere is much due to our collective believe to be 'too smart for this s...t'

Nobody say that the communist were the only one killing people for stupid reason, i merely say that : USA evil that support evildoer vs poor innocent progressive is not a real good depiction of the cold war.
And on a more personal level my big problem with the communist is more the fact that they try to put them on another level of the others group of the Years of Lead, keep saying that they fought for a better cause for a better world and so they must be treated differently. Sorry but for me Brigate Rosse, NAR were both a bunch of psycothic murderer ready to kill for their cause and that in case of victory (both) will have only achieved the ruin of the nation

If the Popular Front ends up being too popular, I can see Scelba doing something very radical to "save" Italy.

With what? And ITTL Scelba is more probably at the moment too occupied in his role of fertilizer

One of the key reasons why Rome had to be quiet about the Foibe massacres was because Washington wanted Tito as an ally. The government who literally closed the refugees in unsafe and unstable refugee camps was controlled by the Christian Democrats.

Again I am not denying the faults of the Communist in this (Togliatti was a dick). I am just pointing out that fucking up the internal situation so much was the result of teamwork between all our political parties.

The point is that Rome and the DC stayed quiet because the help of Washington was needed to rebuild and at least to attempt to get a good deal at Paris and the DC stopped making noise about the refugee only when it was clear that Washington deemed keeping Tito out of Stalin reach much more important, so it was useless and opted for some more diplomatic option but before, well quiet was not the word i have used to describe the relations between Italy and Jugoslavia at the time.
Togliatti and co. happily sold italians and piece of the nation to Tito because well, Uncle Joe said so (or ideological solidariety)...and in this case is important because point how much freedom will have Italy in a european system dominated by the URSS even without the direct presence of the russian troops on Italian soil

 

[Aubreyyy]

I’m fully expecting John Bricker’s IOTL plan to unite GOP and Dixiecrat in a single ticket to succeed and Patton getting the White House with Hoover as AG. He is succeeded by McCarthy and, after the death of the latter, new President Clare Hoffman declares drinking water illegal due public water system being a communist plot to poison Americans, instead mandating compulsory “Freedom Cola” drinking to “support our brothers of the White Rule Government in Rhodesia”.

Finally a president willing to stand up to the international Communist conspiracy to sap and impurify all of our precious bodily fluids.

 

[Seandineen]

If the Italian coup works, do we get MSI straight rule, or a 67 style junta? Could the Monarchy be restored? I have a soft spot for Umberto.

 

[Gar48]

If the Italian coup works, do we get MSI straight rule, or a 67 style junta? Could the Monarchy be restored? I have a soft spot for Umberto.

The MSI at the time were a bunch of fascist nostalgics with no seats in the Parliament. A junta is more likely

 

[Gar48]

With what? And ITTL Scelba is more probably at the moment too occupied in his role of fertilizer

Last time I checked De Gasperi was still alive and well ITTL so why should it be different for Scelba?
Also "the army" is a good answer

The evidence regarding Andreotti letting Moro die is more earseay and the fact that nobody liked (with good reason) Andreotti and what's this?

I mean Moro himself and his family accused Andreotti of letting the Red Brigades kill the former PM. Of course I could also bring up everything else about Matteotti, from his connections to Organised Crime to his attempts to stop investigations against the P2. Or you know the whole "Mani Pulite" thing.

Like Berlusconi, Andreotti was always saved by legal technicalities rather than being found innocent.

Because expecting a normal and restrained reaction from any of our government is ridicolous? Expecially if pressed by the media to do something.

Or because it was discovered De Lorenzo and other leaders of the secret services literally had hundreds of secret files from illegal surveliance. Not only a high number of said leaders were arrested but even the files were considered too dangerous and destroyed

and in this case is important because point how much freedom will have Italy in a european system dominated by the URSS even without the direct presence of the russian troops on Italian soil

As I have already pointed out, Togliatti didn't have total control of the PCI in OTL. He was forced to give important positions to more moderate communists (like Luigi Longo becoming his second in comand), and Soviet money was literally the only reason why he wasn't replaced as a leader of the party after 1956.

ITTL he could either be killed in 1948 or more simply lose his position because the PCI can count on France as a Communist ally.

 

[lukedalton]

Last time I checked De Gasperi was still alive and well ITTL so why should it be different for Scelba?
Also "the army" is a good answer

Even OTL Scelba (that btw was against the fascist with the same fervor that he was against the communist) admitted that if the PCI and co. wanted to start a revolution well they will have succeeded as he basically rebuild the entire police apparatus of Italy.
ITTL the Fronte Popolare have a lot more time and capacity to spread his influence over the police, army and government, plus the USA thanks to white worked hard to undermine the capacity of the DC and the other non communist...so the question remain, a coup? With What?
De Gasperi is alive because frankly it's a too big name and the FP want to keep at least the appeareance of Democracy...at least for now, Scelba? It's the wounderfull mix of being too dangerous and not well know by the general pubblic.

I mean Moro himself and his family accused Andreotti of letting the Red Brigades kill the former PM. Of course I could also bring up everything else about Matteotti, from his connections to Organised Crime to his attempts to stop investigations against the P2. Or you know the whole "Mani Pulite" thing.

Yeah they have accused Andreotti, still with no real proof and frankly Moro family as many other parents of victims are too involved in the fact to be considered reliable as sources unless there is hard evidence (and Moro was a prisoner of a terrorist organization)...frankly all this accusation of Andreotti looked to me as simple an attempt to switch the blame of one of the most heinous terrorist action of the history of the Repubblic from the Red Brigatist (they were merely pawn...sure/s) to anybody else.
Mani Pulite was a messy and complicated thing, that btw the PCI survived thanks to more party discipline and yes Di Pietro said that he will have arrested Andreotti but he was stopped...doesn't mean that he had really any proof but frankly i'm a little jaded about the regular 'incredible' revelation that come out every decades about past fact that change everything

As I have already pointed out, Togliatti didn't have total control of the PCI in OTL. He was forced to give important positions to more moderate communists (like Luigi Longo becoming his second in comand), and Soviet money was literally the only reason why he wasn't replaced as a leader of the party after 1956.

ITTL he could either be killed in 1948 or more simply lose his position because the PCI can count on France as a Communist ally.

Uncle Joe had not spent the good part of the last couple of decades to stamp out any real independence from the rest of the communist parties just to let them do what they wanted during the moment of his triumph, Longo will have been the second in command but honestly 'Il Migliore' is extremely stable at the helm also the man that Stalin see as the leader of the Italian communist and with Soviet troops in Austria ready to come in Italy (by invitation naturally), Longo long term prospective to achieve retirement is more on less the same of De Gasperi.
The PCF is the main competition of the PCI to the role of biggest and most important asskisser of Stalin in Western Europe; sorry but basically every WE communist party in this period are whole owned subsidiary of the PCUS, thinking that they have some level of independece is hard to believe (look at the OTL Greece communist when they have defied Stalin order) ...and that in OTL, here the URSS have many more advantage and control more territory expanding her influence.
Honestly, Western Europe just traded a dictatorship for another and for Italy it's basically traded the amateurs with the professional in term of repression

 

[Gar48]

Even OTL Scelba (that btw was against the fascist with the same fervor that he was against the communist) admitted that if the PCI and co. wanted to start a revolution well they will have succeeded as he basically rebuild the entire police apparatus of Italy.

Scelba literally covered up the massacre of Portella because he was afraid it would have strenghtened the position of the PCI.

He accused Zeno Saltini, an actual catholic priest, of encouraging Communism by helping poor people. There are good evidences he cut deals with the Mafia just to intimidate leftists in Sicily.

He could have given McCarthy a run for his money in the crazy department.

TTL the Fronte Popolare have a lot more time and capacity to spread his influence over the police, army and government, plus the USA thanks to white worked hard to undermine the capacity of the DC and the other non communist...so the question remain, a coup? With What?

Again the Fronte Popolare wasn't made up only by Communists but more or less by all the Italian Left (with the exception of Saragat). You are acting as if they were an hive mind rather than different politicians with very different ideas.

And in OTL we have seen armed forces acting against their own leftist governments. Just look at Chile for example.

PCI survived thanks to more party discipline a

The PCI had been already dissolved by the time Mani Pulite started

eah they have accused Andreotti, still with no real proof and frankly Moro family as many other parents of victims are too involved in the fact to be considered reliable as sources unless there is hard evidence (and Moro was a prisoner of a terrorist organization)...frankly all this accusation of Andreotti looked to me as simple an attempt to switch the blame of one of the most heinous terrorist action of the history of the Repubblic from the Red Brigatist (they were merely pawn...sure/s) to anybody else.

I mean sure, Andreotti costantly opposed the Historic Compromise, but I am sure it was just a coincidence. Also I am sure you can acces Wikipedia to see he was found guilty of working with the Mafia in 2004.

For those who don't speak Italian:

"Also according to the supreme judges, in conclusion, Giulio Andreotti was colluded with Cosa Nostra until the spring of 1980, the moment from which he intended to dissociate himself from the partnership going as far as to promote, within the last cabinets (1989-1992) presided over by him as President of the Council of Ministers, regulatory measures to combat mafia crime."

s in Austria ready to come in Italy (by invitation naturally),

How? Looking at the map you can see that there is no contact in the border between Soviet Austria and Italy. Are the Soviets going to move hundreds of troops by plane?

The PCF is the main competition of the PCI to the role of biggest and most important asskisser of Stalin in Western Europe; sorry but basically every WE communist party in this period are whole owned subsidiary of the PCUS, thinking that they have some level of independece is hard to believe

How?? France isn't a small country in Eastern Europe occupied by the Red Army. It is one of the biggest countries in Western Europe that has acces to a colonial empire.
The Soviets have no way to directly control it, unless somehow they conquer what is left of West Germany.

At best we will see cooperation between Paris and Moscow for a few years before more indipendentist leaders took charge of the party (you know like it happened in OTL)

Honestly, Western Europe just traded a dictatorship for another and for Italy it's basically traded the amateurs with the professional in term of repression

There are many words I want to say about this and none of them is polite. This is a work of fiction so discussing why your statement is incredibly ignorant and seems to downplay what Mussilini did is worthless