Rákóczi's War for Independence was successful

Zeller

Intro

First of all, this is my first AH scenario, so I'll make and post it in parts.
I became very interested in AH in the past few months and checked out many stuff on the internet. The only thing that bothered me that there was little to no Hungarian AH, so I embarked on making my own.
The hardest thing about it was that I was looking for PoDs, but the elemental flow of events seemed to be pushing histroy in the way of it's original course. I was looking for words like 'almost', 'could have', etc, but I just couldn't find the crossroads that would take me to a whole different way.
I gave up, but restarted a few weeks later, returning to one of my early projects: Rákóczi's War for Independence. I read a long article on it and finally found what I was looking for!


Part One: Creating the PoD


Background info (this is all actual history)

Ferenc II Rákóczi was engaged in a dense diplomatic struggle to find allies and - since the war-torn country alone would be vulnerable to opportunist agressors (namely the Ottoman Empire) - a new king for Hungary. The first pearson Rákóczi would've wanted to see on the throne was Bavarian Elector Maximilian Emanuel.
Emanuel finally declined to offer, so the prince offered the hungarian crown to Prussian King Frederick I. The plan was that kuruc and prussian forces are to meet in Silezia and stretch the frontline, so Austria is forced to make peace. The prince (Rákóczi) kept this plan a total secret, he didn't even inform his own generals, who didn't understand why a well-trained army is marching north without attacking the enemy. They voted for an offensive, so on the 3rd of August 1708, the army attacked the fort of Trencsén. The battle was a crushing defeat that not only wrecked the prussian plan, but also started the flow of events wich ultimately lead to loosing the war.

Also, in December 1707, kuruc brigadier Imre Bezerédy lead an incursion to Baden and almost captured Emperor Joseph I.


The PoD

As you may have suspected, we change history by omiting that naughty word in bold.


Part Two: Year One

Legend: italics: Actual history, normal text: Alternate History


1707

Dec: kuruc brigadier Imre Bezerédy leads an incursion to Baden and almost captured Emperor Joseph I. There were some other military achievments, but the Prince saw things weren't going well.
Dec: kuruc brigadier Imre Bezerédy leads an incursion to Baden and captured Emperor Joseph I. A runner is immediately sent to bring the glorious news Rákóczi while Joseph is transported to a kuruc fort.


1708:

Jan: Rákóczi and Joseph start negotiations. Rákóczi wants peace and acknowledgement of Hungary's independence. Joseph doesn't even want to hear about it. Rákóczi then offers retreating from the territory west of the river Rába in exchange for the release of his two sons from Vienna. After the trade, forther negotiations manage to squeeze only a 6-month ceasefire, effective from February 1st, 1708. French, Russian, Swedish, Prussian, British, Polish and Ottoman and other representatives are also present. Joseph is kept in kuruc territory until the end of the ceasefire and would be released in exchange for Rákóczi's wife, Sarolta Amália of Hessen.

29th, Febr: Labanc (hungarian term for Austrians and their loyalist supporters) diet. It only encouraged the rebels to continue their war.

4th May: Maximilian Emanuel finally refuses the Crown saying that he can't risk anything and won't stand up against the Habsburgs anymore.

Early summer: The Prussian plans show great potential, Rákóczi sends a strong, well trained army toward Silezia.
The Prince's generals didn't understand why the army doesn't engage and voted to attack Trencsén.

Early summer: The Prussian plans show great potential, Rákóczi sends a strong, well trained army toward Silezia.
The Prince's generals are curious about the troop movement in the north, but don't want to go on an offensive since the ceasefire is still in effect. A few of them, however, still would like to see Trencsén occupied.

3 August: The rebels were defeated at the Battle of Trencsén. Numerous Kuruc leaders transferred their allegiance to the Emperor, hoping for clemency. Rákóczi’s forces became restricted to the area around Munkács and Szabolcs county.

17 August: Kuruc and Prussian forces meet and start heading toward Imperial territory.27 August: The frontline is ready to be expanded to Silezia as the end of the ceasefire draws close. Labanc scouts report this to Vienna, and Joseph - now exchanged for Rákóczi's wife - recalls many men from France (Spanish War of Succession is raging simultaneously)

2 Sept: Chez and Morvan rebels are also strengthening the Prussian-Kuruc army. An ultimatum is sent to Joseph, who accepts peace.

5 Sept: Bezerédy (who was negotiating with the enemy since the end of 1707) attempts to join the Imperials, but his treachery is discovered and he gets arrested. He is executed at a later date.

21 Sept: The Hungarian Kingdom is now a part of the Prussian Empire, Fredrick I is the new King of Hungary and Silezia, thus the age of the Hohenzollern dynasty in Hungary begins.
Rákóczi rules in Transylvania, which is independent both from the Habsburgs and the Hohenzollerns, but tax-free trading is estabilished between Prussia and Transylvania and they are internationally considered as allies.

23 Sept: Transylvania ceases to pay tribute to the Ottomans.

29 Sept: The new flags for Hungary and Transylvania are ready and hanged up high in every town.

2 Oct: Bezerédy and other generals receive medals of courage and heroism and promoted as nobles.

Oct: Transylvania is now completely lost to the Imperials.

-----


Part 3 will include the next few years, but I'm going to need a little help with that...is there a site where the detalied military strength of historical nations is accessible?
 

Russian Sailor

Zeller said:
Intro

First of all, this is my first AH scenario, so I'll make and post it in parts.
I became very interested in AH in the past few months and checked out many stuff on the internet. The only thing that bothered me that there was little to no Hungarian AH, so I embarked on making my own.
The hardest thing about it was that I was looking for PoDs, but the elemental flow of events seemed to be pushing histroy in the way of it's original course. I was looking for words like 'almost', 'could have', etc, but I just couldn't find the crossroads that would take me to a whole different way.
I gave up, but restarted a few weeks later, returning to one of my early projects: Rákóczi's War for Independence. I read a long article on it and finally found what I was looking for!


Part One: Creating the PoD


Background info (this is all actual history)

Ferenc II Rákóczi was engaged in a dense diplomatic struggle to find allies and - since the war-torn country alone would be vulnerable to opportunist agressors (namely the Ottoman Empire) - a new king for Hungary. The first pearson Rákóczi would've wanted to see on the throne was Bavarian Elector Maximilian Emanuel.
Emanuel finally declined to offer, so the prince offered the hungarian crown to Prussian King Frederick I. The plan was that kuruc and prussian forces are to meet in Silezia and stretch the frontline, so Austria is forced to make peace. The prince (Rákóczi) kept this plan a total secret, he didn't even inform his own generals, who didn't understand why a well-trained army is marching north without attacking the enemy. They voted for an offensive, so on the 3rd of August 1708, the army attacked the fort of Trencsén. The battle was a crushing defeat that not only wrecked the prussian plan, but also started the flow of events wich ultimately lead to loosing the war.

Also, in December 1707, kuruc brigadier Imre Bezerédy lead an incursion to Baden and almost captured Emperor Joseph I.


The PoD

As you may have suspected, we change history by omiting that naughty word in bold.


Part Two: Year One

Legend: italics: Actual history, normal text: Alternate History


1707

Dec: kuruc brigadier Imre Bezerédy leads an incursion to Baden and almost captured Emperor Joseph I. There were some other military achievments, but the Prince saw things weren't going well.
Dec: kuruc brigadier Imre Bezerédy leads an incursion to Baden and captured Emperor Joseph I. A runner is immediately sent to bring the glorious news Rákóczi while Joseph is transported to a kuruc fort.


1708:

Jan: Rákóczi and Joseph start negotiations. Rákóczi wants peace and acknowledgement of Hungary's independence. Joseph doesn't even want to hear about it. Rákóczi then offers retreating from the territory west of the river Rába in exchange for the release of his two sons from Vienna. After the trade, forther negotiations manage to squeeze only a 6-month ceasefire, effective from February 1st, 1708. French, Russian, Swedish, Prussian, British, Polish and Ottoman and other representatives are also present. Joseph is kept in kuruc territory until the end of the ceasefire and would be released in exchange for Rákóczi's wife, Sarolta Amália of Hessen.

29th, Febr: Labanc (hungarian term for Austrians and their loyalist supporters) diet. It only encouraged the rebels to continue their war.

4th May: Maximilian Emanuel finally refuses the Crown saying that he can't risk anything and won't stand up against the Habsburgs anymore.

Early summer: The Prussian plans show great potential, Rákóczi sends a strong, well trained army toward Silezia.
The Prince's generals didn't understand why the army doesn't engage and voted to attack Trencsén.

Early summer: The Prussian plans show great potential, Rákóczi sends a strong, well trained army toward Silezia.
The Prince's generals are curious about the troop movement in the north, but don't want to go on an offensive since the ceasefire is still in effect. A few of them, however, still would like to see Trencsén occupied.

3 August: The rebels were defeated at the Battle of Trencsén. Numerous Kuruc leaders transferred their allegiance to the Emperor, hoping for clemency. Rákóczi’s forces became restricted to the area around Munkács and Szabolcs county.

17 August: Kuruc and Prussian forces meet and start heading toward Imperial territory.27 August: The frontline is ready to be expanded to Silezia as the end of the ceasefire draws close. Labanc scouts report this to Vienna, and Joseph - now exchanged for Rákóczi's wife - recalls many men from France (Spanish War of Succession is raging simultaneously)

2 Sept: Chez and Morvan rebels are also strengthening the Prussian-Kuruc army. An ultimatum is sent to Joseph, who accepts peace.

5 Sept: Bezerédy (who was negotiating with the enemy since the end of 1707) attempts to join the Imperials, but his treachery is discovered and he gets arrested. He is executed at a later date.

21 Sept: The Hungarian Kingdom is now a part of the Prussian Empire, Fredrick I is the new King of Hungary and Silezia, thus the age of the Hohenzollern dynasty in Hungary begins.
Rákóczi rules in Transylvania, which is independent both from the Habsburgs and the Hohenzollerns, but tax-free trading is estabilished between Prussia and Transylvania and they are internationally considered as allies.

23 Sept: Transylvania ceases to pay tribute to the Ottomans.

29 Sept: The new flags for Hungary and Transylvania are ready and hanged up high in every town.

2 Oct: Bezerédy and other generals receive medals of courage and heroism and promoted as nobles.

Oct: Transylvania is now completely lost to the Imperials.

-----


Part 3 will include the next few years, but I'm going to need a little help with that...is there a site where the detalied military strength of historical nations is accessible?
Click to expand...

Nice TL I can't wait to see what Hungary is going to end up now:)
 

Lyly

Ooh, a Hungarian TL. Interesting.

I would say you don't have to include OTL and TTL histories of the same event, just post your own material. But I do like seeing what events are OTL otherwise.
 

Nivek

Wow a Hungary timeline with a pod in the 18th century that result in.. a Hohenzollern Magyar(i still have a shock of unbeliability)

Again pretty interesting timeline so far.. with a pretty obscure but interesting POD of the Magyar history.

I will follow with the TL

Att
Nivek von Beldo
 

Zeller

Part Three

Late 1708: New Palatine of Hungary: Count Miklós Bercsényi. Also acts as governor.
(OTL: the Count was a trusted general of Rákóczi during the war and also knew of secret diplomatic activites.)

Map of South-East Europe in 1708.

Flags: Hungary, Transylvania

The militarization of Hungary begins by Prussian model. The system devised for keeping this many men under arms makes possible the maintenance of
a highly trained citizen army without damage to the economy. Half the army is made up of foreign mercenaries. The other half is a shifting population
of peasants.

Each peasant is drafted into the army as a young man, but after completing his training he goes home to his everyday work for ten months of each year.
Nobles are expected to serve their turn in the army too, but the mercantile classes are exempted.



1709-1714

The War of Spanish Succession ends without any significant change.

There are no major changes in the course of the Geat Northern War either.

Austria slowly recuperates after the loss of great territories to Prussia.



1715

The Ottoman Empire wants back territories lost in the Treaty of Karlowitz (1699) and goes into war with the Venetian Republic.
Grand Vizier Damat Ali re-conquered Morea from the Venetians.

In the summer of 1715, the pasha of Bosnia marched against the Venetian possessions in Dalmatia, with an army that reputedly
numbered 40,000 men. The Ottomans were defeated at Sinj, but the Ottoman threat to Dalmatia played a role in Austria's decision to intervene.

Pope Clement XI agreed to send financial support if Austria attack the ottomans. But Austria wanted safety and sent ambassadors to Frederick William I, King of Prussia to request alliance against the common foe.

Rákóczi was always in favour of the idea of united European attack on the Ottoman Empire. Seeing a chance to reconquer Hungarian territories still
under Ottoman control, encouraged the Prussian King to attack.

After discussions, Austrian, Prussian-Hungarian and Transylvanian armies stood up against the Ottoman Empire.



The Balkan war begins in 1716. (Instead of the Austro-Turkish war.)

The Prussian army defeated the Turks at Petrovaradin. The Banat and its capital Temesvár was conquered in October 1716.
The following year the Prussians captured Belgrade. Meanwhile, the Austrians advance undisturbed along the coastal territories.

Transylvania's army, backed up by Prussian forces occupied parts of Great Wallachia and Dobrudja.

Fearing of further invasion, the Turks wanted peace and in 1718 the Treaty of Passarowitz was signed.

As a result of the treaty Prussia/Hungary gained Serbia and Wallachia, Transylvania received Modlavia and other territories at the coast, Bosnia was put udner Austrian control, while venetia retained several islands and gained a small chunk of land south of Serbia. The Ottoman Empire got to keep Morea as a compensation.
 
Last edited:

Nivek

The Timeline progress is good so far(the butterflies start to apperaed even if know little to nothing about the XVIII Century) in general i want to see how the result of both the loss of Hungary(and a lesser degrees Silesia... but they ultimate lose that in OTL) for the Habsburg and the personal Union of Magyar with Preussen(maybe the Pruso-Hungary state will be the dual one here) and a possible early unificate Rumania with Transilvannia(maybe a dual one with the magyar population, or accepted bi-culturalism?), and maybe this make the Habsburg look for germany as his natural expansion bordier and the Prussians the Balkans(thus inverting their role in OTL history).

Pretty good update keep with it

Att
Nivek von Beldo
 

abc123

Banned
Zeller said:
21 Sept: The Hungarian Kingdom is now a part of the Prussian Empire, Fredrick I is the new King of Hungary and Silezia, thus the age of the Hohenzollern dynasty in Hungary begins.
Rákóczi rules in Transylvania, which is independent both from the Habsburgs and the Hohenzollerns, but tax-free trading is estabilished between Prussia and Transylvania and they are internationally considered as allies.

Why Hungary part of Prussian Empire?:confused:

1. Hungary is far greater than Prussia.
2. Prussia is a Kingdom, not Empire.
3. Prussia is in personal union with Hungary. So no joint state, both Hungary and Prussia are separate states with same king.
;)
Click to expand...
Click to expand...
 

abc123

Banned
Zeller said:
The Balkan war begins in 1716. (Instead of the Austro-Turkish war.)

In result of the treaty, Transyvania and Prussia/Hungary gained significant amount of land, but Austria also gained.
Click to expand...


1. NO WAY that only 10 years after Hungarian- Austrian war Austria and Hungary would be allies against Turks.
Maybe Austrians will even be allies of Turks.

2. No sence that Austria ( without exit to sea except Trieste, and without Navy ) gains Bosnia and Herzegovina.
Simply ASB.
;)
 

Zeller

LylyCSM2 said:
Ooh, a Hungarian TL. Interesting.

I would say you don't have to include OTL and TTL histories of the same event, just post your own material. But I do like seeing what events are OTL otherwise.
Click to expand...

IMHO It's just nice to see the contrasting events in the timelines:)

Nivek said:
in general i want to see how the result of both the loss of Hungary(and a lesser degrees Silesia... but they ultimate lose that in OTL) for the Habsburg and the personal Union of Magyar with Preussen(maybe the Pruso-Hungary state will be the dual one here)
[...]
and a possible early unificate Rumania with Transilvannia
[...]
and maybe this make the Habsburg look for germany as his natural expansion bordier and the Prussians the Balkans(thus inverting their role in OTL history).
Click to expand...

Austria is greatly weakened and would pursue a more cautious international diplomacy. Thatis why they only attacked the Turks with Papal support.

At this point OTL, there was no Rumania yet.
And even if there was, the Hungarians would be extremely opposed to giving Transylvania to Rumania.

That is an interesting idea:)

abc123 said:
What about Croatia?
They are with Hungary or with the Habsburgs?

And why would Hungarians switched Habsburg rule over Hungary with Prussian rule?
:confused:
Click to expand...

Croatia was part of the Kingdom of Hungary, which became part of Prussia

Read Background info in Part One;)


abc123 said:
[ QUOTE=Zeller;3689274]
21 Sept: The Hungarian Kingdom is now a part of the Prussian Empire, Fredrick I is the new King of Hungary and Silezia, thus the age of the Hohenzollern dynasty in Hungary begins.
Rákóczi rules in Transylvania, which is independent both from the Habsburgs and the Hohenzollerns, but tax-free trading is estabilished between Prussia and Transylvania and they are internationally considered as allies.

[QUOTE ]


Why Hungary part of Prussian Empire?:confused:

1. Hungary is far greater than Prussia.
2. Prussia is a Kingdom, not Empire.
3. Prussia is in personal union with Hungary. So no joint state, both Hungary and Prussia are separate states with same king.
;)
Click to expand...
1. True, but the Prussian military is much stronger and greater in numbers.

2. Sorry - my bad:)

3. I intended it to be part of Prussia just like the way it was part of Austria.

abc123 said:
1. NO WAY that only 10 years after Hungarian- Austrian war Austria and Hungary would be allies against Turks.
Maybe Austrians will even be allies of Turks.

2. No sence that Austria ( without exit to sea except Trieste, and without Navy ) gains Bosnia and Herzegovina.
Simply ASB.
;)
Click to expand...

1. Austria wanted to gain territories. They allied with Prussia just to make sure the Prussians won't attack them from behind while they fight the Turks.

2. Austrian troops marched through Croatia on ground and didn't meet significant opposition since the Ottomans were defending inland.


MerryPrankster said:
This is a really interesting scenario.

Map?
Click to expand...


Follow the link at the beginning and the end of Part Three
(Map of South-east Europe in 1708. and result of the treaty).
 

abc123

Banned
Zeller said:
1. True, but the Prussian military is much stronger and greater in numbers.


3. I intended it to be part of Prussia just like the way it was part of Austria.
Click to expand...


1. The WHOLE POINT of Racozy uprising is to defend independence of Hungary.
Why the hell then to give up from that independence by becoming servants of Prussia?
At least Austria is old power, wile Prussia is some upstart.


2. Hungary never was a PART of Austria.
She was in personal union with Austria. So Hungary was a independant country but with same king as Austria.
Same as today UK and Canada.
;)
 

abc123

Banned
Zeller said:
1. Austria wanted to gain territories. They allied with Prussia just to make sure the Prussians won't attack them from behind while they fight the Turks.

2. Austrian troops marched through Croatia on ground and didn't meet significant opposition since the Ottomans were defending inland.





Follow the link at the beginning and the end of Part Three
(Map of South-east Europe in 1708. and result of the treaty).
Click to expand...


Sorry my friend, all of that is utterly ASB.
;)
 

archaeogeek

Banned
abc123 said:
1. The WHOLE POINT of Racozy uprising is to defend independence of Hungary.
Why the hell then to give up from that independence by becoming servants of Prussia?
At least Austria is old power, wile Prussia is some upstart.


2. Hungary never was a PART of Austria.
She was in personal union with Austria. So Hungary was a independant country but with same king as Austria.
Same as today UK and Canada.
;)
Click to expand...

You have a very weak grasp on history.
From 1803 to 1848, Hungary was part of Austria.
From 1763 to 1867, Canada was part of the UK
 

abc123

Banned
450px-II.Rakoczi_Ferenc_es_Zrinyi_Ilona.jpg
 

abc123

Banned
archaeogeek said:
You have a very weak grasp on history.
From 1803 to 1848, Hungary was part of Austria.
From 1763 to 1867, Canada was part of the UK
Click to expand...

Yes, my summa cum laude from history of Habsburg Monarchy is probably weaker then your knowledge.
:rolleyes:

And I was referring on today's Canada- UK relationship.
 

Susano

Banned
abc123 said:
Yes, my summa cum laude from history of Habsburg Monarchy is probably weaker then your knowledge.
:rolleyes:
Click to expand...

She is exactly right. When the Empire of Austria (as opposed to the Archduchy of Austria) was declared, Hungary was part of it. Hungary was part of the "Kaisertum Österreich", and the royal Hungarian title only a subsidary title of the Emperor, nothing more.

Now, if you insist on your graduation summa cum laude, then maybe you should tell us where exactly we err.
 
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