Questions regarding the idea of a black republic in the American South formed from a slave revolt

[BlazingRoman]

I've been thinking a lot about the idea of a confederate victory timeline where the Confederacy gets overthrown by a massive slave revolt and replaced by a black republic like in Haiti. Tried to look up if there was anyone who's had this specific idea, couldn't really find much resembling it (someone else has probably thought of the idea before, maybe I'm just not looking hard enough lol).

My first question is: would such a thing even be feasible or realistic? How could the South be brought down? Perhaps the revolt takes place during a war where the CSA is weakened and vulnerable? I kinda wanted to get some feedback on that question before I potentially develop this idea any further.

Also I'll probably update with more questions over time, in the event that I decide to develop it.

Edit: nvm this is a dumb idea, ignore this thread

 

[walmart]

I've been thinking a lot about the idea of a confederate victory timeline where the Confederacy gets overthrown by a massive slave revolt and replaced by a black republic like in Haiti.

The big issue is that United States won't tolerate such a revolt.

Tried to look up if there was anyone who's had this specific idea, couldn't really find much resembling it (someone else has probably thought of the idea before, maybe I'm just not looking hard enough lol).

I had an idea for something similar but with a pod in 1600s and a black revolt taking place in the 2000s.

 

[BlazingRoman]

The big issue is that United States won't tolerate such a revolt.

yeah, that was the issue I realized after posting this. at most, the black republic would be a short-lived footnote in history as merely a blip in the far more important fact that the USA's main continental rival just fucking imploded and leaves them as the main power on the North American continent (as the Union would likely move in and occupy the South and use this as an opportunity to neutralize the CSA for good after a revolt overthrows the Southern government, assuming this takes place in another North-South conflict post-Civil War).

I had an idea for something similar but with a pod in 1600s and a black revolt taking place in the 2000s.

Interesting.

 

[Slime_blob]

Well a black revolt I imagine if ala Haiti would have likely still be dominated by plantation economy,. Basically no more slavery but likely would have done like ala Haiti implementing like sort of serfdom or any other law or decree to like keep them from producing cash crops to make cash so the government would survive.

 

[Nyegosh]

I've been thinking a lot about the idea of a confederate victory timeline where the Confederacy gets overthrown by a massive slave revolt and replaced by a black republic like in Haiti. Tried to look up if there was anyone who's had this specific idea, couldn't really find much resembling it (someone else has probably thought of the idea before, maybe I'm just not looking hard enough lol).

My first question is: would such a thing even be feasible or realistic? How could the South be brought down? Perhaps the revolt takes place during a war where the CSA is weakened and vulnerable? I kinda wanted to get some feedback on that question before I potentially develop this idea any further.

Also I'll probably update with more questions over time, in the event that I decide to develop it.

Edit: nvm this is a dumb idea, ignore this thread

The Confederacy is way too large and way too White for a total Haiti scenario. You could maaybe have it happen locally in the Black Belt or South Carolina (majority Black iirc). You have to remember that the Haitian revolution was absurdly bloody and practically devolved into an ethnic conflict instantly, Whites and Mixed individuals who supported the revolution got betrayed in the end and expelled or outright killed. This simply can't fly anywhere in the Confederacy or the US. You'd have a truly nasty reaction - not only would this fail but it would probably result in Blacks being on the level of a statistical error in the country.

The only way I actually see it happening if you have some sort of WMIT tier basket case in the North that will actively support the Blacks and help them, with all the ensuing massacres. We're dealing with a lot of mutual resentment in this case after all.

 

[czareason]

My first question is: would such a thing even be feasible or realistic? How could the South be brought down? Perhaps the revolt takes place during a war where the CSA is weakened and vulnerable? I kinda wanted to get some feedback on that question before I potentially develop this idea any further.

Also I'll probably update with more questions over time, in the event that I decide to develop it.

Edit: nvm this is a dumb idea, ignore this thread

I don't think that this is a dumb idea. Considering how the CSA was formed, if it won the Civil War it would have fallen apart either the members revolt, the slave revolt or both.

I understand that people think that USA wouldn't allow a Free Black Nation, how and why would they fight it. The slaves would be fighting against and hurting their hated enemy the CSA. The USA wouldn't help the CSA. Frankly during this revolt which would take place during a war, my guess against the Mexican Empire with the Empire receiving European support. The slaves would be receiving support. Why would Mexico and Europe support the slaves over the CSA? Because the CSA if it existed would be a problem for the USA, Mexico, Central America, and European Empires.

 

[Intosh]

The moment, the revolted Black slaves in the American South will begin killing Whites women and children in great numbers such as the Haitian Massacres that killed between 3 000 and 5 000 people.

1804 Haitian massacre - Wikipedia

en.m.wikipedia.org

The revenge of the White Americans will be so terrible and thousands and thousands of Black people will be killed in reprisals.

 

[marktaha]

Novel.Fire on.the Mountain by Terry Bisson

 

[CHKeeley]

I understand that people think that USA wouldn't allow a Free Black Nation, how and why would they fight it. The slaves would be fighting against and hurting their hated enemy the CSA. The USA wouldn't help the CSA

I think the argument is more that there’s absolutely no reason the United States would not just intervene and reintegrate the seceded states. Why would they just sit on their hands and watch?

As for the general scenario, I think it’s exceedingly difficult to get a massive slave revolt like the one described in the American South. Haiti had a number of very strong advantages. This includes an comparatively tiny number of whites in comparison to slaves, the slave trade being active meant that there were plenty of first generation slaves who possessed the skills and mentality necessary, Haiti is a far flung island colony of the French, and the terrain is incredibly advantageous compared to the American South. The few slave revolts attempted in the United States were small and localized affairs in which the majority of slaves weighed their options and decided not to join. This was because the white population was far larger, better armed, and better conditioned by the plantation economy to root out potential insurrection. Especially so after the restrictions imposed in the 1830s following Nat Turner’s revolt. It’s not comparable to the Haitian experience in any serious way outside the vaguest similarities. It’s not impossible and I think periodic revolts are likely, but this massive insurrection that sweeps all over the south in a great inferno has more of a place in the feverish nightmare of a paranoid planter class than in the historical realities of the slave south.

 

[raharris1973]

Not to make the BlazingRoman feel chased down even after he's trying to retreat from the idea, - but in any case Czareason needs to read this: The idea of a black revolt taking over and reversing the hierarchy in an independent CSA may be enjoyable from a 'moral of the story', revenge factor, or overall 'Django Unchained' fantasy aspect of the idea. But it can't be done with any realism without injecting major altering factors in the decidedly white-majority CSA demography to get that demography more Haitian like, via things like racially selective plagues hitting white people, a massive revival of trans-Atlantic slave trade that the maritime powers don't mind somehow, or CSA planter-ocracy getting so overbearing on white non-slaveowners or small landholders to cause major white flight, so pretty much ASB developments.

You *could* have better luck with one of these freedmen republics (or kingdoms or chiefdoms) getting set up by collaboration with an anti-English European invader in the 1600s or 1700s than anything happening after the establishment of the United States as we know it. Odds simply worsen to vanishing point in the 1800s. And in the case of one of these freedmen states getting set up in colonial times it could easily have a lifespan of only a century or a few decades or less.

 

[Slime_blob]

I'm thinking if the Confederate Plantocracy would either like stay or what. Especially that it's likely to that the rebel leadership would just invite them back to their estates.

It's gonna be an important question for the post black revolution leadership.

Technically it's likely that the remnants of the plantocracy, who are willing to work with the new government as long as they keep their land and property. Obviously not the slaves, but you get the point. Would be allowed to return back.

If yes they would likely take part of the government and basically be part of the elites over again.

If not I'm guessing the revolutionary leaders alongside some few black slaveowners and Free people of color and Lousianan Creoles and some mulatto and children of slaveowners who got themselves like recognized etc etc would be the elites.

 

[CHKeeley]

I'm thinking if the Confederate Plantocracy would either like stay or what. Especially that it's likely to that the rebel leadership would just invite them back to their estates.

It's gonna be an important question for the post black revolution leadership.

Technically it's likely that the remnants of the plantocracy, who are willing to work with the new government as long as they keep their land and property. Obviously not the slaves, but you get the point. Would be allowed to return back

Why would the return of estates to ex-planters be on the table though? I mean sure the revolutionary government needs to resume sort semblance of an export economy fairly soon due to the over reliance on cotton mono cropping, but I think it would be similar to Haiti with either outright military force being used to keep the ex-enslaved on the plantation or some form of sharecropping is developed alongside a captaincy system for each plantation sorta like in Haiti later under Henri Christophe. There really isn’t any need or motivation to restore land to white planters after such a revolution considering newly elevated black elites could do the same job without provoking the wrath of the revolution’s base.

 

[DG Valdron]

Slave revolts were an endemic feature of the Antebellum South, and every slave owner lived in fear of his slaves and, as the saying goes, kept a pistol under his pillow.

So it's not necessarily ASB to suggest a truly massive large scale slave revolt. All you need is time and circumstance.

The question is, how far could one get?

I'm not sure. Overthrowing the Confederacy and setting up a successor government over the whole thing seems farfetched.

A lot would depend on the geography, and whether the Revolt could control enough territory to enforce defensible borders.

It would be miles more interesting than the usual 'Lost Cause" fantasies.

 

[aben]

I don't think that this is a dumb idea. Considering how the CSA was formed, if it won the Civil War it would have fallen apart either the members revolt, the slave revolt or both.

I understand that people think that USA wouldn't allow a Free Black Nation, how and why would they fight it. The slaves would be fighting against and hurting their hated enemy the CSA. The USA wouldn't help the CSA. Frankly during this revolt which would take place during a war, my guess against the Mexican Empire with the Empire receiving European support. The slaves would be receiving support. Why would Mexico and Europe support the slaves over the CSA? Because the CSA if it existed would be a problem for the USA, Mexico, Central America, and European Empires.

The USA would still lay claim to the territory, they would send in the Union army and steamroll a nascent slave revolt state with no proper economy or standing army.

 

[SIngemeister]

The moment, the revolted Black slaves in the American South will begin killing Whites women and children in great numbers such as the Haitian Massacres that killed between 3 000 and 5 000 people.

1804 Haitian massacre - Wikipedia

en.m.wikipedia.org

The revenge of the White Americans will be so terrible and thousands and thousands of Black people will be killed in reprisals.

The Haitian massacre didn’t happen until 13 years after the initial revolution - after Napoleon invaded, and it became clear that the French occupiers were likely to reintroduce slavery and LeClerc and Rochambeau engaged in extremely brutal massacres against the black populace and after the Grand Blancs and some among the mulattoes, such as Regaud, had actively lobbied both Great Britain and Napoleonic France to invade and reinstall slavery and race-based caste systems - even after Toussaint Louverture had tried really quite hard to ensure racial equity and abolition. Even then, both Germans and Poles were left essentially untouched and great Noir status.

The massacres were horrible and Dessalines was a monster, don’t get me wrong, but they required a lot of build up. It wasn’t just revenge for slavery, it was revenge for perceived repeated treachery as well.

 

[Hugh Third of Five]

If the slaves were in a position to overthrow the Confederate government, why would they wait until after a Confederate victory? Wouldn't it make more sense to do it while the USA is still fighting the CSA?

 

[DG Valdron]

The moment, the revolted Black slaves in the American South will begin killing Whites women and children in great numbers such as the Haitian Massacres that killed between 3 000 and 5 000 people.

The revenge of the White Americans will be so terrible and thousands and thousands of Black people will be killed in reprisals.

I don't think that massacres of white women and children in great numbers is an inevitable outcome.

 

[DG Valdron]

Honestly, after all these Confederate Victory timelines, I would absolutely love to see a halfway credible Spartacus CSA Uprising timeline. Bonus points if it succeeds. Just saying.

 

[Fratsup]

What Confederate victory timelines? Most timelines post 2016 have been Confederate screws, or major torture porn about how much the author can make the Confederacy suffer.

As for a slave revolt I have to agree that any that occurs would like just be annexed by the US. Assuming the Confederates dont act dumb and actually defeat them, since that is what happened across most of OTL.

 

[stephen rude]

It does seem very likely that the US would move in if the CSA started collapsing like that, but is there any chance that this slave-revolt-turned-black-republic could be integrated as a state in and of itself, instead of just being reabsorbed into one or more of the old states?