Question Regarding Simpson (1632 series)

Chris

Banned
Hi, I have been considering writing and submitting a small story for the 1632slush and I need to ensure that I have my facts correct. Can someone please answer me a question?

Simpson ran against Mike in the first election, which took place somewhere between 1632 and ROF. What happened? Did he lose the election or did he stand down?

Thanks

Chris
 
Hi, I have been considering writing and submitting a small story for the 1632slush and I need to ensure that I have my facts correct. Can someone please answer me a question?

Simpson ran against Mike in the first election, which took place somewhere between 1632 and ROF. What happened? Did he lose the election or did he stand down?

Thanks

Chris

I believe he lost the election (although well into the campaign he was having misgivings on it as some of the locations he was gathering support from he did not agree with at all).
 
He most definitely lost the election. He didn't completely reconcile with Stearns until after he was made Admiral of the Navy. I don't remember exactly how much later. I think he and his wife have made overatures to his Tom and Rita as well. Sorry, it has been a while since I read the books.
 
Yeah, he lost and, as was mentioned, eventually became a very loyal member of the opposition, and chief of the Stearns's Navy. Too bad. One thing setting the 1632 series apart from (and well below) SM Sterling's ISOT series is the improbable absence of a really bad guy emerging from the Americans in 1632...no traitors, sexual pervets, to hate. Makes the whole series much less interesting without a good Judas (or Walker).
 

Thande

Donor
Yeah, he lost and, as was mentioned, eventually became a very loyal member of the opposition, and chief of the Stearns's Navy. Too bad. One thing setting the 1632 series apart from (and well below) SM Sterling's ISOT series is the improbable absence of a really bad guy emerging from the Americans in 1632...no traitors, sexual pervets, to hate. Makes the whole series much less interesting without a good Judas (or Walker).
There's the what-do-you-call-it club, the anti-German racist rednecks (although even then some of the Grantville Gazettes have attempted to rehabilitate them).

Of course most of the downtimer enemies of the USE are presented quite three-dimensionally as well, but I tend to view that as a strength not a weakness.
 
Agreed. That's something I really don't care for in Stirling's books -- the bad guys are almost always wholly bad, with no redeeming characteristics. That simply doesn't happen in the real world.

It doesn't happen in the real world? Too bad: must have crossed in an ATL without realising it. What happened to Himmler, Stalin, Pol Pot, Idi Amin Bokassa in TTL? Did they live in obscurity?
 

Thande

Donor
It doesn't happen in the real world? Too bad: must have crossed in an ATL without realising it. What happened to Himmler, Stalin, Pol Pot, Idi Amin Bokassa in TTL? Did they live in obscurity?
I don't think you quite understand what we meant. Obviously there are some monsters in OTL, but the vast majority of wars are between two sets of 'sort of OK on average guys' rather than Good Guys and Bad Guys.

In other words - if Stirling had written OTL, then Krushchev would have been another Stalin, as would Gorbachev; EVERYONE in Third Reich Germany would have been like Hitler/Himmler/Heydrich, with no Rommels or Canaris-es; Pol Pot's successors would still be ruling Cambodia, and Idi Amin would have turned all of East Africa into a reverse Draka-type empire. Until, of course, the squeaky clean American good guys show up...
 
I don't think you quite understand what we meant. Obviously there are some monsters in OTL, but the vast majority of wars are between two sets of 'sort of OK on average guys' rather than Good Guys and Bad Guys.

In other words - if Stirling had written OTL, then Krushchev would have been another Stalin, as would Gorbachev; EVERYONE in Third Reich Germany would have been like Hitler/Himmler/Heydrich, with no Rommels or Canaris-es; Pol Pot's successors would still be ruling Cambodia, and Idi Amin would have turned all of East Africa into a reverse Draka-type empire. Until, of course, the squeaky clean American good guys show up...

Not to defend Stirling (who does not need it), but characters in a book are usually not fully three-dimensional (there are exceptions, and quite obviously it's a way of sorting great writers from commercial writers - no offense intended obviously). However, I would point out that in the ISOT series the two true baddies were Walker and Rose (?) whatever, the Lady of Pain (ok, and the kraut).
The other characters we were introduced to were normal blokes, not bad and not good, average.
I would also submit that Walker might have read the wrong books, but he was not "totally" bad (nor he was as smart as he thought he was, btw).
Slavery was the kosher thing in the Iron age, and it's quite illusory to think that just because a few thousand modern American were isoted there this would change the world from one day to the other (or even from one decade to the other),
The true "baddies" of the real world have much less scruples than Walker and value human life much much much less than he did. And usually they don't even have a plan that makes sense.
 
There's the what-do-you-call-it club, the anti-German racist rednecks (although even then some of the Grantville Gazettes have attempted to rehabilitate them).

Of course most of the downtimer enemies of the USE are presented quite three-dimensionally as well, but I tend to view that as a strength not a weakness.

The racist hicks in that one bar.

And there was that one guy who was selling information out of his kid's books to Richelleu. He was caught, and Don Francisco made him write to Richelleu saying there was gold in the Everglades. :D
 

Thande

Donor
The true "baddies" of the real world have much less scruples than Walker and value human life much much much less than he did. And usually they don't even have a plan that makes sense.
I don't argue with this general point, and I think the same is true to a lesser extent of 1632. But it's disingenuous to say that the Nantucketers were worse than Walker. In intention, perhaps, but not in execution (ahem).
 

Thande

Donor
The racist hicks in that one bar.

And there was that one guy who was selling information out of his kid's books to Richelleu. He was caught, and Don Francisco made him write to Richelleu saying there was gold in the Everglades. :D
That was just cruel ;)

Yeah, a couple of the Grantville Gazettes have tried to rehabilitate the racists, which I find - well, ambitious...
 
There's the what-do-you-call-it club, the anti-German racist rednecks (although even then some of the Grantville Gazettes have attempted to rehabilitate them).

True, but none of these people are represented by a major character, nor do they have any real effect on the plot. I have nothing against complex characterization, but ALL of Flint's Grantville Americans (and German fellow travellers) are nearly flawless. They are no more three dimentional in their way than Walker was in his. I would agree that his characterizations of the real downtime characters like Richelieu and Karl Gustav are very good.
 
I don't argue with this general point, and I think the same is true to a lesser extent of 1632. But it's disingenuous to say that the Nantucketers were worse than Walker. In intention, perhaps, but not in execution (ahem).

I think you missed my point. I said that Walker was portrayed as the traditional "antagonist" of the 19th century feuilletons, while the Nantucketers who remained faithful to the constitution and the traditional values of every red-blooded American (there including the right of bearing arms, blah, blah, blah) were obviously the "good guys" (ok, and then there were a limited number of nuts). Say that the original number were 6 or 7 thousands. Walker's followers were just a dozen, which is a pretty low number. Lisketter's followers were three dozens? (I'm guessing, not much more than that, I'd assume). Add suicides, general nuts (like the pastor who destryed the guns) and so on: shall we say 200 of them? It means that 96% of the other Nantucketers stayed sane, busted their asses working to overcome the famine in first winter, and then went on a spread, bringing freedom, democracy and potatoes to the Iron Age world, converting Iraq to democracy (sorry, it was Babylon. My bad) and winning a worl war. After which they were so generous and far-sighted that they even made peace with the Tartesso king (forgot the name) who had just one year earlier tried to conquer and enslve all of Nantucket. Ok, ok: the narrative necessity, and all that. It would not be nice if the book just said that Nantucket failed to survive, except for the smart guys who stole the boats and went to live like kings among the savages. Very long winded, sorry.

To get to the core: Walker was possibly the only guy who realised where he had to live the rest of his life :D. All the other poor bastards missed that, and had a very short life-expectancy.

Mind, I liked the ISOT books: they were readable, and a good yarn. You just had not to look for the obvious impossibilities.
 
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