Q: 'Reverse Denmark' possible and functional?

[Mario]

During the Middle Ages, Denmark was composed by three national territories: Jutland - the Danish Islands - Scania, with the political nucleus just in the center (the islands).

But during the 17th century Sweden expelled the Danes from Scania and this territory was (relatively) 'swedified', leaving Denmark as the current binomial Jutland - Danish Islands.

My question is: could it have been the opposite way, like Denmark keeping Scania and losing Jutland to Germany/HRE whatever? Could this alternate Denmark be functional as a state or that combination would be more unstable?

 

[Elfwine]

Losing Jutland doesn't sound impossible, but I'm not sure such a Denmark (say, looking at its near collapse in the 14th century) would manage to hold Scania.

 

[Grey Wolf]

Maybe they lose it to Russia if Peter III is not overthrown, and the Holstein war extends over a larger area of claims

 

[Vabasion]

They’d lose Scania as well under such circumstances. It’s virtually guaranteed that weakened Denmark would fall prey to Sweden

 

[Jürgen]

During the Middle Ages, Denmark was composed by three national territories: Jutland - the Danish Islands - Scania, with the political nucleus just in the center (the islands).

But during the 17th century Sweden expelled the Danes from Scania and this territory was (relatively) 'swedified', leaving Denmark as the current binomial Jutland - Danish Islands.

My question is: could it have been the opposite way, like Denmark keeping Scania and losing Jutland to Germany/HRE whatever? Could this alternate Denmark be functional as a state or that combination would be more unstable?

Yes, it’s perfectly functional and in many way economical it‘s better integrated.

 

[Jürgen]

They’d lose Scania as well under such circumstances. It’s virtually guaranteed that weakened Denmark would fall prey to Sweden

The Swedish conquest of Scania demanded the invasion of Zealand, the Swedish invasion in question came through the route Jutland, Funen, Langeland, Lolland, Falster. Without a occupation of Zealand the Danes simply out wait Swedish forces in Scania in the big coastal towns and at some point the Swedes run out of food to loot and have to retreat or starve. The freezing of the belts which made the Swedish invasion possible was a rare event and if it had been a little hotter, the Swedes could have seen much of their forces drowning as they tried marching over the ice.

 

[klauslimbek]

During the Middle Ages, Denmark was composed by three national territories: Jutland - the Danish Islands - Scania, with the political nucleus just in the center (the islands).

But during the 17th century Sweden expelled the Danes from Scania and this territory was (relatively) 'swedified', leaving Denmark as the current binomial Jutland - Danish Islands.

My question is: could it have been the opposite way, like Denmark keeping Scania and losing Jutland to Germany/HRE whatever? Could this alternate Denmark be functional as a state or that combination would be more unstable?

Well the reverse would depend on when, if we’re talking Otto I or II’s invasions resulting in conquest, Barbarossa successfully dividing Denmark and having this state stay a part of the HRE, or if Gerhard the Great would manage to make himself the supreme ruler of peninsula. So the main question to me seems when, whatever remained of Denmark would seek unification with Norway and Sweden, if the POD is the 14th century, and without Jutland the scales would be much more balanced, maybe a lasting Kalmar Union, built around expelling the Germans from the north. For the most part I think even if Jutland was completely Germanised, it would likely still change hands several times between Denmark and the south, due to simple proximity and relative demographics.

 

[Jürgen]

Well the reverse would depend on when, if we’re talking Otto I or II’s invasions resulting in conquest, Barbarossa successfully dividing Denmark and having this state stay a part of the HRE, or if Gerhard the Great would manage to make himself the supreme ruler of peninsula. So the main question to me seems when, whatever remained of Denmark would seek unification with Norway and Sweden, if the POD is the 14th century, and without Jutland the scales would be much more balanced, maybe a lasting Kalmar Union, built around expelling the Germans from the north. For the most part I think even if Jutland was completely Germanised, it would likely still change hands several times between Denmark and the south, due to simple proximity and relative demographics.

I see little reason for Jutland to be Germanized. The Germanizing of Schleswig was not a result of German settlers, but was a result of the local dialect having a low mutual intelligibility with standard Danish [1] and German being chosen as Church language in the regions which became German speaking. Cutting off Jutland from Zealand is more likely to result in some Jutish dialect being standardized. I suspect that with Jutland being united Ribe will end up the center of Jutland. While the Eastern Jutland have greater population density, Ribe serve as a gate to the North Sea.

[1] Which built on the dialect spoken in the Sound region.

 

[arctic warrior]

Losing Scania comes down to British and Dutch interests in the Baltic areas for raw materials for their Navies. Thus the two saw a benefit in keeping the Sound open to their traffic and hence Sweden was allowed to conquer Scania but NOT Denmark/Sjaelland.

1864 is one time when Germany could have kept Jutland for a warprize though still the British might not like it but it was certainly a possible which recent research have revealed.
Medieval times were rife for cutting off Jutland not least due to Jutish Nobility as any other would be happy to enjoy this; the logical foreign power would be German in some guise but the HRE was quite loosely integrated so it may have drifted out and in of Danish hegemony during the times ending up as part of which Nation State?

Denmark without Jutland may well survive into the 1600's even east of the Sound but then it become more difficult though the traderoutes were through the Sound not the Great or Small Baelt which the Great waw only charted by 1801 by the Royal Navy following the Battle of Copenhagen Roads and following operations in the Baltic against Sweden and Russia. Britain may still decide to uphold Denmark to have free navigation in the Sound.

 

[klauslimbek]

I see little reason for Jutland to be Germanized. The Germanizing of Schleswig was not a result of German settlers, but was a result of the local dialect having a low mutual intelligibility with standard Danish [1] and German being chosen as Church language in the regions which became German speaking. Cutting off Jutland from Zealand is more likely to result in some Jutish dialect being standardized. I suspect that with Jutland being united Ribe will end up the center of Jutland. While the Eastern Jutland have greater population density, Ribe serve as a gate to the North Sea.

[1] Which built on the dialect spoken in the Sound region.

If Gerhard the Great conquered all Jutland, which would likely still be a bloody affair, due to prevalent anti-German revolts. If on top of that the peninsulas population was halfed a few years later by the Black Death. The German rulers but also the Hansa, would promote settlement in the region quite simply due to how strategic Jutland is. Also with similar languages, and rough decades after the Black Death, the local danish would likely begin to assimilate. Especially if the holsteiners don’t tighten the leash to much, as the Jutish nobility time an time again proved themselves completely willing to cooperate with the Germans even if it would mean the destruction of the danish monarchy. As evidenced by their alliance of 1368.

 

[Jürgen]

If Gerhard the Great conquered all Jutland, which would likely still be a bloody affair, due to prevalent anti-German revolts. If on top of that the peninsulas population was halfed a few years later by the Black Death. The German rulers but also the Hansa, would promote settlement in the region quite simply due to how strategic Jutland is. Also with similar languages, and rough decades after the Black Death, the local danish would likely begin to assimilate. Especially if the holsteiners don’t tighten the leash to much, as the Jutish nobility time an time again proved themselves completely willing to cooperate with the Germans even if it would mean the destruction of the danish monarchy. As evidenced by their alliance of 1368.

The only settlement of Germans for political reason in Denmark was the Saxons settled between the Eider and the Schlei, and that happened before the Danes converted to Christianity. Any attempt to import settlers to the region to marginalized the population will be meet with large scale revolt, while not importing settlers will simply mean the Jutish estates accepting the new rulers.

 

[klauslimbek]

The only settlement of Germans for political reason in Denmark was the Saxons settled between the Eider and the Schlei, and that happened before the Danes converted to Christianity. Any attempt to import settlers to the region to marginalized the population will be meet with large scale revolt, while not importing settlers will simply mean the Jutish estates accepting the new rulers.

German settlements in Denmark would not be hard pressed, as it took Denmark centuries to recover from the Black Death, with German management and tons of vacant land. Trade completely dominated by the Germans , it would seem to me a foregone conclusion that Jutland if under continuous German management would Germanise. Now if this wasn’t the case and the Dane’s could get a comeback that’s another discussion entirely. But I find it silly to believe that Jutland already sparsely populated, with a halved population and their economy reliant on trade with the Germans, would not Germanise, so even today the jutes would be a minority people - when nothing is gained from being so, and the peninsula being largely flat plains and forests.

 

[klauslimbek]

The only settlement of Germans for political reason in Denmark was the Saxons settled between the Eider and the Schlei, and that happened before the Danes converted to Christianity. Any attempt to import settlers to the region to marginalized the population will be meet with large scale revolt, while not importing settlers will simply mean the Jutish estates accepting the new rulers.

Also it isn’t political, it is purely beneficial, Holstein would gain by allowing the Hansa to repopulate Aalborg for example, and the Germans had a larger population to pull on making it easier to repopulate, the Hansa would gain by having nearly unchallengeable control of the trade around Jutland.

 

[arctic warrior]

Also it isn’t political, it is purely beneficial, Holstein would gain by allowing the Hansa to repopulate Aalborg for example, and the Germans had a larger population to pull on making it easier to repopulate, the Hansa would gain by having nearly unchallengeable control of the trade around Jutland.

And really able to keep hold of Norway and expand more into the North Sea area.