Proposals and War Aims That Didn't Happen Map Thread
- Thread starter Beedok
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The 1359 Treaty of London would've ceded the Angevin Empire lands to England and, unlike during the Angevin era, would have fully removed the area from French sovereignty. It was signed by then-captive King John II of France but repudiated by the Estates General. Truly an epic France-Screw.
North east Iran looks like it has just been turned to more ocean lol
And quite possibly a bigger England-screw as well, in terms of reducing the offshore areas to a neglected backwater taking hind-teat to ambition or even basic defense on the continent.
ETA: For that matter, the 'defrancification' of the Angevin ruling classes (to the degree that it even got started) are quite soundly reversed. Recall what happened to Scotland when England became its crown colony in OTL.
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Something like this coming to pass could also be an Aragonwank.The 1359 Treaty of London would've ceded the Angevin Empire lands to England and, unlike during the Angevin era, would have fully removed the area from French sovereignty. It was signed by then-captive King John II of France but repudiated by the Estates General. Truly an epic France-Screw.
By the 1210s, the whole non-English Occitanie (the County of Toulouse in that map) would be dominated by Aragon, annexed or vassalized.
I made a map of the proposed United Baltic Duchy, as described in this Wikipedia article:
However, good references are missing, does anyone have more information about this proposal?
However, good references are missing, does anyone have more information about this proposal?
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If you're looking for text based references you should check out Totentanz0's reference file for WW1 stuff, that'd probably be your best bet.
I've pursued this a bit more to try and find more detail on the matter. That this proposal was made seems to be nearly a matter of fact. The proposal was made on March 16th at a meeting that lasted all of 15 minutes before it broke down due to ireeconcilable hostility between the Ethiopian and Somali representative.Apparently, in 1977 when Fidel Castro was becoming involved in the Second Ogaden War, he attempted to broker a truce by proposing to merge Ethiopia, Somalia, and South Yemen together in a federation. I don't know if this is totally true, but I did find a possibly credible source:
No I don't know what the finer details were besides a very vauge statement by this source. I'm not sure even what he would be thinking. It seems sort of logical since Castro was far more willing to sideline national/ethnic identities to create communist states (Hence he got involved in multiple civil wars in Africa). Although I'm not sure he ever knew much about Somalia, Ethiopia, or Yemen anyways.
Remembering the Ogaden War 45 Years Later: Four and a Half Lessons Towards a Peaceful Future – ACCORD
45 years ago, Africa was confronted with its first inter-state war when Somalia tried to annex the Ogaden from Ethiopia. This PPB offers insight into the conflict.www.accord.org.za
Either way, it was rejected by all.
It seems that this was not just some hare-brained idea of Castro's. It was a Soviet proposal that arose out of quite practical grounding. Ethiopia under the Emperor had historically been a steadfast ally of the West. This served to cement Western and Arab control over the strategically vital (as we have seen in recent months) Red Sea, which was further strengthened by Egypt's detente with Israel, and the resolution of the North Yemen conflict in a compromise that sidelined the Soviets. A Western-aligned Ethiopia also denigrated the ability of the Soviets to project influence through sub-Saharan Africa.
- Consequently, The Soviets had poured a tremendous amount of resources into Somalia with its irredentist claims against Ethiopia, such that Somalia became the best armed state in sub-Saharan Africa.
- Likewise, the Soviets provided arms to the Eritrean nationalist movement to undermine Addis Ababa and to potentially gain the Soviets an outlet on the Red Sea.
- However, with the overthrow of Haile Selassie by the socialist Derg in 1974, matters changed. The Derg was making forceful changes in Ethiopia that spoke positively to their socialist bona fides. Suddenly Ethiopia was a potential ally with many factors speaking in its favor -
- An old ally of Washington could be wrested away from it
- Ethiopia's large population, abundant natural resources, and good prospects for development (and the actions of the Derg which showed a commitment to development)
- Ethiopia's central position in the Horn of Africa provided a geostrategic opportunity for domination of the whole area, including the Red Sea littoral (thus allowing control over global shipping), and the projection of influence into Arabia and sub-Saharan Africa.
- Ethiopia's control over the headwaters of the Nile gives it strategic leverage over Egypt and Sudan who were drifting away from the Soviet camp
- In spite of these benefits, it came with large problems, namely the potential to entirely alienate Somalia and Eritrea. This would not only waste the investment that had been poured into these parties, but it could consequently push these parties into the arms of the Arabs and Washington (or Beijing), losing Soviet influence over the Red Sea. Alliance with Ethiopia would likewise alienate Arabs, due to the close relations between Ethiopia and Israel that continued even after the Derg came to power.
It's also worth noting that the federation was also intended to ask Djibouti to join. At the time of the proposal, it was still the French Territory of the Afars and the Issas, but was due to receive independence later in the year. Presumably, as the Somalis had designs on the territory, its integration into the federation would serve to assuage Somali irredentism. The proposal was obviously a huge failure, talks broke down in 15 minutes when the Somalis said anything short of Somali control of the Ogaden was unacceptable, and the Ethiopians countered that Somalia was a made-up country invented by the British and Italians.
From my reading, it seems like though the proposal was unworkable from the start, the Somalis are more at fault from its failures. It seems as though the Deg, based on its stated ideology and negotiations made after the Ogaden War, would have been open to some kind of autonomy for the Ogaden. Siad Barre and the prevailing ideology in Somalia on the other hand was driven and held together by nationalism, with development-focused scientific socialists being a fairly sidelined in the regime: Concession of the Ogaden or Somalia's other claims (Djibouti and Northern Kenya) were unacceptable to the very constitution of the socialist Somali state. This whole paragraph is my personal speculation, I could be overstating the Derg's willingness to compromise, not sure.
With all of this in mind, here's a WorldA patch showing the federation with the inclusion of Djibouti, and autonomy of the Ogaden and Eritrea.
References
"Eritreans Urge Negotiations." The Washington Post. 1978.
Nurthen, William A. Soviet Strategy in the Red Sea Basin. Monterrey: Naval Post Graduate School. 1980.
Papp, Daniel S. “The Soviet Union and Cuba in Ethiopia.” Current History 76, no. 445 (1979): 110–30. 1979.
Remnek, Richard. "Soviet Policy in the Horn of Africa: The Decision to Intervene." Alexandria: Center for Naval Analyses. 1980.
This bit makes me chuckle since the EPLF were already Maoist by this point.
Sloppy writing on my part: Nurthen (who I am most reliant on) only cites Soviet concern of Chinese influence as regards Somalia and, to a lesser degree, South Yemen, he doesn't bring it up relating to the Eritreans. And he does in fact hedge that the Soviet support to Eritrean movements is indirect and not extensive.
However - given the date for Nurthen's thesis, and looking over some of the references to support for Eritrea, I wonder to what degree this was fog-of-war projection on his part.
Nurthen pg. 18:
Corresponding footnote, pg. 37-38:
This is virtually the only evidence provided of Soviet support to the Eritreans - thin gruel indeed. Though there is something to be said for the fact that both the Cubans and the South Yemenis did support the Eritreans up to 1975, which would indicate at least tacit approval on the part of the Soviets. And the Soviets did support the 9-point plan for peaceful reconciliation of the Eritrean conflict (rejected by the Eritreans and the Derg), and it seems like they did see a broader Horn Federation as a means to ameliorate the conflict.
Still, it seems Nurthen does overstate the degree of Soviet influence and support of the Eritreans, their reconciliatory approach seems more practical than anything, not wanting to be sucked into a quagmire in helping the Derg suppress the rebels (as they would end up doing). Papp's "Eritrea and the Soviet-Cuban Connection" (1978) was useful in getting a reality check on Soviet involvement in Eritrea.
The essential picture remains the same: The Soviets did not want to alienate the Eritreans. If the Eritreans ended up winning than it would cut Ethiopia off from the Red Sea, losing the Soviets their outlet when they've already alienated Somalia. If the Eritreans were put down in military conflict (as the Derg seemed to prefer), it would be costly for the Soviets, further alienate them from the Arab world, and play into the Maoist line framing the Soviets as colonizers. So the Soviets hoped for a political settlement with the Eritreans, whether that be in a Ethiopian federation or a pan-Horn federation.
(same book)Iranian plans during the Iran-Iraq War:
Iraqi plans:
View attachment 856620
From the book The Gulf War by John Bulloch
What the actual fuck?
Are you surprised at learning this because you weren't aware of the information before now? Or is your wtf in response to some non-specified other reason? <.<(same book)
What the actual fuck?
its both, the sheer ridiculousness of Saddam wanting to rule islands at the very far end of the Gulf just because is what gets me
Seems like it would be pretty useful for Iraqi power projection in the Gulf if they wanted to be both a stronger regional power and seize control of a huge area of oil production and thus step up exports and shipping through the Gulf.
It doesn't read to me as him wanting to rule them, merely of him wanting Iran to not rule them. Getting them transferred back to the Emirate of Sharjah, which continues to claim them IOTL, would be a big propaganda coup for Iraq, and strengthen the regime's position as a defender of Arab rights. Likewise with promoting autonomy for Khuzestan; getting Sunni Arabs out from the rule of Shia Iran would make Hussein look really good to the people he wanted to impress.