Progressivism without Wilson

Woodrow Wilson is most famous for killing the Progressive movement by getting everything they wanted done. He was essentially the most successful politician in American history. The only thing he didn't succeed at was his attempt at saving Russia and Mexico.(the other is idiots thinking he was a fascist because he saw a movie that he didn't even like).

Let's say the pod is Champ Clark winning
Will Progressivism die in the 20s
Will senate reform, prohibition, eugenics laws, age of consent laws, antitrust and intervention in the war still happen.
What happens to FDR. Remember he only became famous because he led an investigation of homosexuality in the navy.
Will Russia still fall to communism
Will Mexico still fall to fascism before becoming just a normal (non communist) socialist dictatorship that lasted into 2000
 
Imagine thinking Wilson is the Apex of the progressive moment when he literally revitalised the KKK lmao
 
Imagine thinking Wilson is the Apex of the progressive moment when he literally revitalised the KKK lmao
That is a myth. He actually disliked Birth of a Nation. In a newspaper it says that he fell asleep watching it. Also, yes I know he was a racist but most of these accusations come from Roosevelt fanboys (who himself was a much bigger racist, also at least Wilson never instigated a war) and or insane conspiracy theorists.
 
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What about union protection?
Progressives and Socialists hated eachother. Progressives actually viewed themselves as the saviors of the republic protecting it from socialism. It wasn't until recently that progressivism and socialism have become synonymous. Although I do agree with you.
 
Progressives and Socialists hated eachother. Progressives actually viewed themselves as the saviors of the republic protecting it from socialism. It wasn't until recently that progressivism and socialism have become synonymous. Although I do agree with you.
... Unions generally weren't socialist.
 
That is a myth. He actually disliked Birth of a Nation. In a newspaper it says that he fell asleep watching it. Also, yes I know he was a racist but most of these accusations come from Roosevelt fanboys (who himself was a much bigger racist, also at least Wilson never instigated a war) and or insane conspiracy theorists.
However you spin it, it was highly irresponsible to screen the film at best.
 
Also, yes I know he was a racist but most of these accusations come from Roosevelt fanboys (who himself was a much bigger racist, also at least Wilson never instigated a war) and or insane conspiracy theorists.
He actively forced Federal agencies to re-segregate, outright fired black department heads to replace them with whites, and repeatedly wrote that white people were inherently superior to black people. Read his damn wikiquotes.

 
He actively forced Federal agencies to re-segregate, outright fired black department heads to replace them with whites, and repeatedly wrote that white people were inherently superior to black people. Read his damn wikiquotes.

Yeah, of course he was a racist. Nobody denied that. However, literally every president ever was racist. Want me to do a list.

Lincoln believed blacks could never assimilate
Grant committed genocide against Native Americans
Roosevelt was an American supremacist and believed that there was no good native American
FDR hated black people
Truman was a member of the kkk in his youth
Eisenhower was a Lost Causer
LBJ was a southern Democrat for years

Want me to go on
Basically, it doesn't matter if he was a racist. In my opinion he wasn't that bad because at least didn't commit genocide.
We should look at presidents for both their achievements and failures. This thread is specifically about how progressivism surviving after Wilson.
 
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Yeah, of course he was a racist. Nobody denied that. However, literally every president ever was racist. Want me to do a list.

Lincoln believed blacks could never assimilate
Grant committed genocide against Native Americans
Roosevelt was an American supremacist and believed that there was no good native American
FDR hated black people
Truman was a member of the kkk in his youth
Eisenhower was a Lost Causer
LBJ was a southern Democrat for years

Want me to go on
Basically, it doesn't matter if he was a racist. In my opinion he wasn't that bad because at least didn't commit genocide.
We should look at presidents for both their achievements and failures. This thread is specifically about how progressivism surviving after Wilson.

Wilson was extremely racist even by the standards of his own time.

He was one of the most outspoken supporters of the Lost Cause ideology.
 
Wilson was extremely racist even by the standards of his own time.

He was one of the most outspoken supporters of the Lost Cause ideology.
Dude, this was the era of eugenics and the kkk. Everyone was racist. Reality was not Victoria 3 with wholesome socialists. Even the communists at the time were racist.
No, I want you to not call us "idiots" and "Roosevelt fanboys" and "insane conspiracy theorists".
The only people who hate Wilson are
1) libertarians and nazis who hate him for creating the federal reserve
2) Historically illiterate people whose sole knowledge of history comes from YouTube videos
3) Roosevelt fanboys who believe it was his chance (even though Wilson got everything they wanted done)

Yes, Wilson was a racist. I don't care because Wilson gave us FDR.
 
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The only people who hate Wilson are
3) Roosevelt fanboys who believe it was his chance (even though Wilson got everything they wanted done)

Did he?


Campaign Finance Reform -- no new laws passed during his term
Lobbyist Registration -- not enacted during his term
Public Plebiscites to Override State Supreme Court Rulings -- never enacted (and maybe not such a good idea)
Minimum Wage For Women -- not enacted during his term
Social Security -- not enacted during his term
Government Oversight of Stock Market Investments -- not enacted during his term and IMHO this lack was largely to blame for the Crash of 1929.
 
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Progressivism died because the Red Scare essentially neutered the reform element of the progressives by the taint of association with communism/socialism, not because Wilson gave them everything. What did survive was the moral crusading element, which successfully pushed for Prohibition and then died out when Prohibition ended up being a disaster, and the efficiency camp, which saw the decline of the politician machines and continued anticorruption efforts into the 1940s.

Secondly, Teddy Roosevelt's New Nationalism is just as viable as a New Deal predecessor, if not even more so given that Wilson's program was a more liberal set of reforms whose goal was to enable the independent success of small businesses. In contrast, Teddy's program pushed for a strong government and a much stronger social welfare network than Wilson was proposing in his New Freedom policy. However, that's all moot with a Clark victory, since Clark's isolationism would be much more palatable than in the 1916 election, regardless of the Progressives and Republicans reuniting.

Will Progressivism die in the 20s
Will senate reform, prohibition, eugenics laws, age of consent laws, antitrust and intervention in the war still happen.
What happens to FDR. Remember he only became famous because he led an investigation of homosexuality in the navy.
Will Russia still fall to communism
Will Mexico still fall to fascism before becoming just a normal (non communist) socialist dictatorship that lasted into 2000
  1. Depends on if the Red Scare happens.
  2. Lots of things going on here:
    1. 17th amendment was passed by Congress before the 1912 elections, so it still happens. I don't think Clark would have an effect on the state ratifications of the amendment
    2. Wilson tried to ignore Prohibition (probably because the anti-Prohibition elements were primarily Democrat supporters) and it still passed. I imagine Clark does the same with the same results.
    3. It's hard to find sources about Clark's view on race and eugenics. But he was a Missouri Democrat, so I wouldn't be surprised. Eugenics is probably the same as OTL.
    4. Age of consent laws were a state affair, so the President really doesn't influence things that much in that area. Same as OTL
    5. The Democrats were generally opposed to Republican big business, so Clark would probably continue anti-trust action, at least to stick it to the GOP's biggest backers.
    6. War intervention is probably the biggest divergence with a Clark presidency. Clark was opposed to the US declaration of war, and without presidential support, I doubt that Congress can get the 2/3rds majority needed to veto the President and declare war. Now there's a ton of debate as to how a neutral US affects the war, but I lean towards some sort of draw, perhaps slightly favoring the Central Powers.
    7. Other divergences: Clark opposed the Federal Reserve Act, and I would say he's ambivalent about labor rights. This has implications for the recession that will occur in the 1920s, likely because Europe enters a depression postwar and is highly likely to default on its debts to the US. Also, I don't really think Clark was a progressive, he just wanted party united to avoid something like 1912 happening to the Democrats. As such, I imagine the conservative wing of the Democratic party becomes dominant, as opposed to the OTL progressive wing.
  3. Uh, the Newport Sex Scandal was a blemish on FDR's career. It didn't help him at all given that commission concluded he was unfit for public office. But honestly, things probably stay the same. Clark would probably reward FDR for opposing his cousin, and Assistant Secretary of the Navy is the ideal posting for FDR given his enthusiasm and theoretical expertise on the navy. However, the Newport Sex Scandal could be butterflied by no American mobilization into the war, but that benefits FDR's career and doesn't harm it. Also, things drastically diverging means the circumstances that led to FDR being paralyzed could be butterflied away, saving years of recovery. I think that FDR could be governor of New York by 1924, assuming no paralysis and no Newport Sex Scandal, putting him on track to be President by 1928, which would place him in the same situation as OTL given that a recession will likely hit in the early 1920s. But FDR winning the election in 1928 is contingent on a wide variety of factors. A Clark presidency likely pushes progressives more into the GOP camp, which would harm the primary. In addition, the labor unions are severely weakened by the Red Scare, further reducing FDR's support base for the New Deal Coalition. Personally, I would say Clark wins an 8 year term, his successor (hard to say, given that the internal politics of the Democrats are completely reshuffled due to the dominance of the conservative win) wins the 1920 elections, but a recession occurs on his watch (either the 1st term or the start of the 2nd term), giving the progressive Republicans room to sweep in and claim the presidency with a New Nationalism-modelled New Deal to put in place. FDR probably has to wait until the 30s or 40s for his chance at the presidency as a result.
  4. Now given that WWI has drastically diverged, the Russian intervention is completely different from OTL. There's a pretty good post somewhere on this forum about why in a CP victory (or a draw for that matter), Germany actually isn't likely to back a serious intervention against the Bolsheviks, and the Entente with the US wasn't able to mount a successful intervention OTL, so their chances of succeeding when they are far more exhausted by war and without US backing are much slimmer. I imagine the Bolsheviks still take power in Russia, although Brest-Litovsk means they are much less of a threat than OTL. The very existence of a successful Bolshevik revolution is still more than enough to spook Americans into a Red Scare though.
  5. Clark is less of an interventionist, so the Mexican revolution plays out differently. Henry Lane Wilson still remains ambassador until Clark takes power, so Madero is still assassinated and replaced by Huerta. I imagine Clark is much less likely to perform shenanigans like occupying Veracruz or imposing an arms embargo, thus not destabilizing Huerta's regime. That could either mean Huerta retains power and crushes the revolution, or the anti-Huerta coalition wins more narrowly, and the weakness and exhaustion of all factions results in a successful ruling coalition forming between Carranza, Zapata, and Villa.
 
Progressivism died because the Red Scare essentially neutered the reform element of the progressives by the taint of association with communism/socialism, not because Wilson gave them everything. What did survive was the moral crusading element, which successfully pushed for Prohibition and then died out when Prohibition ended up being a disaster, and the efficiency camp, which saw the decline of the politician machines and continued anticorruption efforts into the 1940s.

Secondly, Teddy Roosevelt's New Nationalism is just as viable as a New Deal predecessor, if not even more so given that Wilson's program was a more liberal set of reforms whose goal was to enable the independent success of small businesses. In contrast, Teddy's program pushed for a strong government and a much stronger social welfare network than Wilson was proposing in his New Freedom policy. However, that's all moot with a Clark victory, since Clark's isolationism would be much more palatable than in the 1916 election, regardless of the Progressives and Republicans reuniting.


  1. Depends on if the Red Scare happens.
  2. Lots of things going on here:
    1. 17th amendment was passed by Congress before the 1912 elections, so it still happens. I don't think Clark would have an effect on the state ratifications of the amendment
    2. Wilson tried to ignore Prohibition (probably because the anti-Prohibition elements were primarily Democrat supporters) and it still passed. I imagine Clark does the same with the same results.
    3. It's hard to find sources about Clark's view on race and eugenics. But he was a Missouri Democrat, so I wouldn't be surprised. Eugenics is probably the same as OTL.
    4. Age of consent laws were a state affair, so the President really doesn't influence things that much in that area. Same as OTL
    5. The Democrats were generally opposed to Republican big business, so Clark would probably continue anti-trust action, at least to stick it to the GOP's biggest backers.
    6. War intervention is probably the biggest divergence with a Clark presidency. Clark was opposed to the US declaration of war, and without presidential support, I doubt that Congress can get the 2/3rds majority needed to veto the President and declare war. Now there's a ton of debate as to how a neutral US affects the war, but I lean towards some sort of draw, perhaps slightly favoring the Central Powers.
    7. Other divergences: Clark opposed the Federal Reserve Act, and I would say he's ambivalent about labor rights. This has implications for the recession that will occur in the 1920s, likely because Europe enters a depression postwar and is highly likely to default on its debts to the US. Also, I don't really think Clark was a progressive, he just wanted party united to avoid something like 1912 happening to the Democrats. As such, I imagine the conservative wing of the Democratic party becomes dominant, as opposed to the OTL progressive wing.
  3. Uh, the Newport Sex Scandal was a blemish on FDR's career. It didn't help him at all given that commission concluded he was unfit for public office. But honestly, things probably stay the same. Clark would probably reward FDR for opposing his cousin, and Assistant Secretary of the Navy is the ideal posting for FDR given his enthusiasm and theoretical expertise on the navy. However, the Newport Sex Scandal could be butterflied by no American mobilization into the war, but that benefits FDR's career and doesn't harm it. Also, things drastically diverging means the circumstances that led to FDR being paralyzed could be butterflied away, saving years of recovery. I think that FDR could be governor of New York by 1924, assuming no paralysis and no Newport Sex Scandal, putting him on track to be President by 1928, which would place him in the same situation as OTL given that a recession will likely hit in the early 1920s. But FDR winning the election in 1928 is contingent on a wide variety of factors. A Clark presidency likely pushes progressives more into the GOP camp, which would harm the primary. In addition, the labor unions are severely weakened by the Red Scare, further reducing FDR's support base for the New Deal Coalition. Personally, I would say Clark wins an 8 year term, his successor (hard to say, given that the internal politics of the Democrats are completely reshuffled due to the dominance of the conservative win) wins the 1920 elections, but a recession occurs on his watch (either the 1st term or the start of the 2nd term), giving the progressive Republicans room to sweep in and claim the presidency with a New Nationalism-modelled New Deal to put in place. FDR probably has to wait until the 30s or 40s for his chance at the presidency as a result.
  4. Now given that WWI has drastically diverged, the Russian intervention is completely different from OTL. There's a pretty good post somewhere on this forum about why in a CP victory (or a draw for that matter), Germany actually isn't likely to back a serious intervention against the Bolsheviks, and the Entente with the US wasn't able to mount a successful intervention OTL, so their chances of succeeding when they are far more exhausted by war and without US backing are much slimmer. I imagine the Bolsheviks still take power in Russia, although Brest-Litovsk means they are much less of a threat than OTL. The very existence of a successful Bolshevik revolution is still more than enough to spook Americans into a Red Scare though.
  5. Clark is less of an interventionist, so the Mexican revolution plays out differently. Henry Lane Wilson still remains ambassador until Clark takes power, so Madero is still assassinated and replaced by Huerta. I imagine Clark is much less likely to perform shenanigans like occupying Veracruz or imposing an arms embargo, thus not destabilizing Huerta's regime. That could either mean Huerta retains power and crushes the revolution, or the anti-Huerta coalition wins more narrowly, and the weakness and exhaustion of all factions results in a successful ruling coalition forming between Carranza, Zapata, and Villa.
Great post. Seriously, these points are so well written that you should make a timeline of this. This is great stuff. Definitely following.
Did he?


Campaign Finance Reform -- no new laws passed during his term
Lobbyist Registration -- not enacted during his term
Public Plebiscites to Override State Supreme Court Rulings -- never enacted (and maybe not such a good idea)
Minimum Wage For Women -- not enacted during his term
Social Security -- not enacted during his term
Government Oversight of Stock Market Investments -- not enacted during his term and IMHO this lack was largely to blame for the Crash of 1929.
Genuinely didn't know about these.
 
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