Pride Goes Before a Fall: A Revolutionary Greece Timeline

[Duke of Orlando]

Personally, I find the Bektashi Albanians as a fascinating and interesting culture. Frankly, we should know more about them.

But when we talk about alternate history we should take into account how people viewed each other at the period we examine. In the case of bektashi Tosk Albanians, they were called Turkalbanians (Turkalvanoi, Τουρκαλβανοί) by the Greeks of the 19th century - even before the POD. The same applies to the rest of the muslim Albanians. Another name for a muslim Albanian was "Turk".

That applies to the whole region, not just Epirus and Albania. For example, when we read about the battles of Greeks with Lalas Albanians in the Peloponnese, we never read about "muslim Albanians" or just "Albanians" in contemporary sources. We read about "Turks" and "Turkalbanians".

To change contemporary attitudes we need a POD before the 19th century. This is why I was very sceptical about the revolting christian peasants in Epirus allowing the Chams to hold their lands in Thesprotia.

Indeed there was an umbrella of hellenism in OTL. So, there were groups such as the "Albanianvlachs" (Arvanitovlachoi. Αρβανιτόβλαχοι) that spoke tosk albanian and aromanian. They were included in that hellenic identity. But what 19th century people thoughts as "Turks" or "Turkalbanians" are not such a group.

I don’t disagree with this line of thought for the most part. I also admit to being biased as I’m very intrigued by the Bektashi in Albania. I feel out of any early modern Muslim group in the Balkans they’d have the best chance of integrating with a Christian majority country. But just because they have the best chance doesn’t mean it’s going to happen. Or at least happen in Greece. I just happen to like Greeks and the Bektashi and would love for the groups to work together.

The only thing I will disagree with is the implication that the Greeks are stuck with the OTL view of the “Turkalbanian”. Even if many of the Albanian Muslims leave Northern Epirus some will stay. I expect the intellectuals of Greece to try and write the Cham into the Hellenistic Umbrella, at least those that stayed. The view can and likely will change. Maybe not quickly or enough for a full scale Bektashi/Greece joining but enough that I expect the view of Albanian to be significantly more nuanced.

 

[X Oristos]

I expect the intellectuals of Greece to try and write the Cham into the Hellenistic Umbrella, at least those that stayed.

But why and how? What are the underlying social and political forces? We are talking about a paradigm shift when it comes to ethnogenesis in the Balkans.

Rightfully so, most people in this thread state that Bulgaria cannot get in a Hellenic Umbrella. Yet, they are co-religionists that share common enemies with the Greeks. Even more, some of the future Bulgarian revolutionaries have studied in Athens. Just 30 years ago, Bulgarian volunteers fought on the side of Greeks during their revolution. Yet, as we have established we would need a POD 50 years earlier than Earl's to plausibly include this group in a hellenic identity.

In contrast Bektashi and sunni Ghegs constituted the majority of the ottoman armies that fought against the revolutionaries...

Edit: The "Turkalbanians" and "Turks" I mentioned, it was not used as a slur by contemporary Greek authors, but as an ethnonym. To my knowledge there was no distinction at all between bektashi and sunni Albanians. The only distinction of contemporary writers was strictly linguistic.

 

[A_simple_pilgrim]

I don't see some sort of wholesale cultural acceptance of Albanians of all stripes on part of the greeks. The Greek government will take the majority orthodox Albanian land, and keep pushing north until it runs out of the desire to take land filled with, if not hostile, non accepted populations, and the trouble that comes with dealing with them.

The border will be north of OTL, but probably not much more than norther Epirus.

I do believe that orthodox Albanians will play a larger role in greek cultural and intellectual life, but the movement to accept and embrace greek muslims or Albanian muslims doesn't seem to really exist, and the leading party for the next decade or two, the nationalists, don't seem very inclined to do so.

 

[Lascaris]

I do believe that orthodox Albanians will play a larger role in greek cultural and intellectual life, but the movement to accept and embrace greek muslims or Albanian muslims doesn't seem to really exist, and the leading party for the next decade or two, the nationalists, don't seem very inclined to do so.

Actually I suspect the border has already reached the maximum Greek expansion in Epirus TTL...

 

[kaizerfox]

Actually I suspect the border has already reached the maximum Greek expansion in Epirus TTL...

Naw I see them at least getting OTL North Epirus which they already have part of ITTL. The furthest extent north I could see the Greeks is Vlore though I think that's pushing it.

 

[goumaister]

Well on the topic of Albanian assimilation I have to agree with X_Oristos. I don't see why the Cham ,or in this case any Albanian, forfeit his heritage willingly. Of course there will be cases of Albanians doing so for economic opportunities but that would be a small percentage. See the Cham OTL they never assimilated into Greece since the incorporation of Epirus in the Balkan Wars and they were expulsed after WW2. The Albanian Revolutionaries later on will be from the Ottoman Empire as they have quite a big diaspora , Ali Muhammad of Egypt was Albanian after all, and they will wake their nationalism sooner rather than later. I would even say that a Greece that will try to incorporate them forcefully will spark that nationalism even faster.
Also Greece would always want more Greeks rather than minorities, as bad as that sounds really, so when local Greeks mishandle local Albanians the authorities are going to turn a blind eye in most cases. The richer Albanians are going to lose a lot of land and that will lead to unrest. The saving grace here are the refugees of the Albanian revolution in 1833(I think) but they weren't in such significant numbers nor in any position of wealth as the newly added ones so they had a totally different attitude.
In my opinion the Albanians that will most likely assimilate are the orthodox ones in the South and in any case there isn't anything Greece wants norther so I don't see them going that way. The price is in the East once that is taken the rest will have their chance.
Same goes for Northern Macedonia. Monastir is what the Greeks want anything higher is just for pretty borders not any other significance cause as I said above the East is the priority.

Actually I suspect the border has already reached the maximum Greek expansion in Epirus TTL...

I think Korytsa is not yet Greek, when that will happen I don't see more expansion.

 

[danybhoy]

Actually I suspect the border has already reached the maximum Greek expansion in Epirus TTL...

I personally think the max expansion the greek state would want is otl Northern Epirus but with the wetern border along the Aoös river. It can also try for the remaining orthodox areas in the map but that will make annexing bektashi lands a necessity.

 

[Damian0358]

What’s more likely ITTL is a rump Albania consisting of the Tosk regions and the southern half being Greek. There’s also the outside chance of Kosovo joining Albania, but I can’t recall what the exact population numbers of Albanians vs Serbians were in the region at this point (I do know there was a very rapid population change at some point).

If Serbia gets its way, it would likely be a rump Albania. If I recall correctly, in their plans for the First Balkan Alliance OTL, Ilija Garašanin believed the Albanians would be the biggest obstacle, so he tried to establish cooperation with Albanian leaders, and even believed they should receive an independent state encompassing territories between the Drin and Aoös rivers (the latter obviously lining up well TTL for the Greeks). When paired with what Garašanin had previously said in his Načertanije ("For the present, the only [sea ]route possible[ as to provide Serbia a port and free its foreign trade from Austrian hands] is the one which leads through Shkodër to Ulcinj..."), this gives a clear indication to what degree Serbia (and likely Montenegro) would take from northern Albania.

While I don't exactly recall population changes, I do recall there was the forced expulsion of Albanians from the south of Serbia, i.e. areas near Niš as well as Kuršumlija (all part of the Sanjak of Niš), and these Albanians would resettle in Kosovo, further pushing the population numbers towards an Albanian majority.

 

[Quinkana]

I personally think the max expansion the greek state would want is otl Northern Epirus but with the wetern border along the Aoös river. It can also try for the remaining orthodox areas in the map but that will make annexing bektashi lands a necessity.View attachment 697618

I think they will do population transfers and make their own Albanian lands fully orthodox instead. I think that would make more sense to take those people and put them in northern Epirus.
Oh the topic of assimilation, what do you guys think of the Greeks successfully assimilating the Macedonians? After all the Macedonian identity is created due to the schools the Greeks have. A more powerful Greece may be able to convert them into thinking that they're fully Greek.

 

[Duke of Orlando]

I mean one can make an argument for an earlier National awakening in OTL but the birth of Albanian Nationalism is traditionally seen as the Great Eastern Crisis/The Russo-Turkic war period which has yet to happen ITTL. One could also make a convincing argument that ITTL Albanian nationalism is likely to get a kick started with the Greek annexation of Northern Epirus. That’s an argument I’d agree with as it was the first loss of territory they’d experienced and they’d likely start looking to themselves for protection against the Greeks rather than the Empire as a whole. That said while there’s a language difference and in many cases a religious one out of all of these areas Albania is the most in flux when it comes to a national identity at this point. If the Greeks wanted to make a play to get the Cham for instance to be part of the Greek culture quilt it would be significantly easier than any Bulgarians.

As for why? Well for the Cham if they become “Greek” they likely have significantly easier social mobility in Greece, meaning they don’t have to abandoned their homes and lands. I’m not sure if the religious freedom they regained during the Tanzimat era happened ITTL but if they didn’t happen Greek offers of religious freedoms could be appealing. Although by that logic I’m not sure they were even banned ITTL. Why would the Greek government encourage this? Because it gets them more loyal taxpayers

Anyway I can admit when I’m beaten. I just thought I’d post my logic to go along with it. I feel guilty because somehow we started discuss Southern Albania again and I feel like that’s all my comments do. So I’m swearing off all Albania talk for a bit.

 

[Lascaris]

I personally think the max expansion the greek state would want is otl Northern Epirus but with the wetern border along the Aoös river. It can also try for the remaining orthodox areas in the map but that will make annexing bektashi lands a necessity.View attachment 697618

TTL Greece DID get North Epirus, south of the Aoos/Vjose river already. So the most heavily Greek/Orthodox Christian territories are already under its control. IMS Korytsa/Korce has remained Ottoman though, my supicion is it will be getting immigration from Muslims that do not want to live under Greek rule while Christians will be moving the other way round in the coming years...

 

[Quinkana]

If Serbia gets its way, it would likely be a rump Albania. If I recall correctly, in their plans for the First Balkan Alliance OTL, Ilija Garašanin believed the Albanians would be the biggest obstacle, so he tried to establish cooperation with Albanian leaders, and even believed they should receive an independent state encompassing territories between the Drin and Aoös rivers (the latter obviously lining up well TTL for the Greeks). When paired with what Garašanin had previously said in his Načertanije ("For the present, the only [sea ]route possible[ as to provide Serbia a port and free its foreign trade from Austrian hands] is the one which leads through Shkodër to Ulcinj..."), this gives a clear indication to what degree Serbia (and likely Montenegro) would take from northern Albania.

While I don't exactly recall population changes, I do recall there was the forced expulsion of Albanians from the south of Serbia, i.e. areas near Niš as well as Kuršumlija (all part of the Sanjak of Niš), and these Albanians would resettle in Kosovo, further pushing the population numbers towards an Albanian majority.

I mean, you can have the Albanian identity be split into two branches which roughly follow the Gheg speaking and Tosk speaking regions of Albania. Since Gheg speakers are more likely to be Catholic I think they'll be more amenable to join the Balkan nation North of them, while the tosk regions get assimilated/population transferred out.
I think it basically amounts to how much the Greeks are willing/able to assimilate. I'm pretty sure they can push the Bektashi order to the north through population transfers and stuff.

 

[Hastings]

This is my view of maximal claims of a realistic Greece in Albania. The area I colored in red in 1923 would have had roughly 150,000 Orthodox Greeks and Albanians and a similar number of Muslims, mostly Bektashi. Basically try to include all the major majority Orthodox areas, while being reasonably defensible. Black line is current border in ATL. A large number of Muslims would flee when it would fall to the Greeks, leaving an Orthodox majority before any official expulsions. I doubt the scenario of Bektashi being integrated into the Greek nation would happen.

 

[Duke of Orlando]

View attachment 697698
This is my view of maximal claims of a realistic Greece in Albania. The area I colored in red in 1923 would have had roughly 150,000 Orthodox Greeks and Albanians and a similar number of Muslims, mostly Bektashi. Basically try to include all the major majority Orthodox areas, while being reasonably defensible. Black line is current border in ATL. A large number of Muslims would flee when it would fall to the Greeks, leaving an Orthodox majority before any official expulsions. I doubt the scenario of Bektashi being integrated into the Greek nation would happen.

I feel that something like the border of the County of Vlores would probably be the maximum extent North that they’d try to go in the west. Even then they’d only go that far north to fully secure the bay of Vlores. It also nearly follows the potential Aoos river border mentioned earlier. The East assuming relative demographic stability looks relatively right if the Greeks are feeling greedy. I expect less than that though in reality. As you said those are the maximum.

 

[Carter I'm Yog]

I feel that something like the border of the County of Vlores would probably be the maximum extent North that they’d try to go in the west. Even then they’d only go that far north to fully secure the bay of Vlores. It also nearly follows the potential Aoos river border mentioned earlier. The East assuming relative demographic stability looks relatively right if the Greeks are feeling greedy. I expect less than that though in reality. As you said those are the maximum.

A map would really help with all the locality names.

 

[Duke of Orlando]

A map would really help with all the locality names.

I have no idea how to make a proper map and I’m on my phone so I’ve no idea if this map will even be clear to read. So I’m incredibly sorry about that.

If you can see it, the black line is an incredibly rough version of the border I’m talking about in the west. It doesn’t claim the large orthodox Albanian enclave to the north of it that Hastings included but I think the real prize left in the west is the Vlores and it’s Bay Area.

 

[Carter I'm Yog]

I have no idea how to make a proper map and I’m on my phone so I’ve no idea if this map will even be clear to read.

The counties are clear, but since it doesn't show rivers and bays I am still lost.

 

[Duke of Orlando]

The counties are clear, but since it doesn't show rivers and bays I am still lost.

The red circle is the bay and I tried to highlight the river with the blue. The black isn’t really a suggested border, it’s more to just show roughly where I think it breaks off from the Aoos.

 

[E_x_c_u_b_i_t_o_r_e]

View attachment 697739
The red circle is the bay and I tried to highlight the river with the blue. The black isn’t really a suggested border, it’s more to just show roughly where I think it breaks off from the Aoos.

Such a huge salient, wouldnt it be better if it was like this instead? Green for optimal border, while Violet is my preferred. I'm not too sure what's in between Gramsh and Pogradec, must be forests and mountains seperating it. Either way I think this border is more appropriate.

 

[Quinkana]

Such a huge salient, wouldnt it be better if it was like this instead? Green for optimal border, while Violet is my preferred. I'm not too sure what's in between Gramsh and Pogradec, must be forests and mountains seperating it. Either way I think this border is more appropriate.
View attachment 697743

Personally green and violet makes more sense but there's a lot of Muslim Albanians in it, which means a lot needs to be done to make it... pacified.

I do think it's a possible border if Greece was partitioning Albania with alt Serbia or no one comes to save Albania.