The two primary weapons of Greek nationalism in the era, schools and petty shop owners.
Pride Goes Before a Fall: A Revolutionary Greece Timeline
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The two primary weapons of Greek nationalism in the era, schools and petty shop owners.
Fourth.......giagiades and churches(they always go together
)Edit: seriously thought the older generation was pretty important in that period and churches educated the masses.
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Nah man i prefer souvlakia with seftalies..now that is the perfect combo
By all accounts, Prince Constantine is a relatively good looking young man and he will definitely grow into his looks as he ages, but by his father's standards' he is the "ugly" duckling of the family, especially when compared to his brother and sister.
The Greeks call their state, the Kingdom of Hellas.
The last we saw of the United States was in 1844 with the election of Henry Clay as President so things are already quite different than in OTL. Whether something like the Confederate States of America emerges in this timeline is up for debate, but slavery will definitely be an issue that the USA that will need to resolve eventually.
I've actually been considering Alexandra Alexandrovna, or rather her counterpart ITTL as a possible bride for Prince Constantine as she would have a number of things going for her. Firstly, she would be the eldest grandchild of the Russian Emperor Nicholas, and she would be the eldest child of Nicholas' son and heir, Grand Duke Alexander Nikolayevich (OTL's Alexander II), thus strengthening the ties between Russia and Greece for many years to come. A marriage between her and Constantine would also likely bring with it a sizeable dowry consisting of many tens of thousands of Pounds Sterling and many, many jewels if her sister Maria's marriage to Albert, Duke of Albany is any indication. She would also be Eastern Orthodox, which would make it easier for the Greek Government and Greek people to accept her as one of their own, while also helping her ease into her life in Greece.
There are a few drawbacks to a Constantine Alexandra match, however. Firstly, she is only ten years old as of 1852, while he is eighteen. This isn't that big of a gap in age comparatively speaking (King Leopold is a staggering 26 years older than his wife, Queen Marie), it does present a concern as the line of succession is rather short right now and Leopold isn't getting any younger or any healthier. By the time Alexandra Alexandrovna is of age to marry (she would be 16 in 1858) Leopold would be nearing his 68th birthday and I don't know if he would be willing to wait that long to get a wife for Constantine, not to mention an heir for his heir. There is also another issue, namely the matter of their consanguinity with one another as Constantine and Alexandra would be second cousins with each other through their shared descent from Tsar Paul of Russia. I know that marriages between first cousins is usually shunned in the Orthodox Church, but I'm not sure about marriages between second cousins. Finally, a Russian bride for Prince Constantine might sour relations between Greece and Britain given the general animosity and Russophobia in Westminster at this time. Given his precarious situation, Leopold would definitely not want to upset any of the Powers, particularly Britain if he can avoid doing so.
TTL's Princess Louise of Prussia would also be a good choice for Prince Constantine. While she wouldn't provide as valuable a relationship for Greece; Prussia has a completely different sphere of influence and interests compared to Russia, it would still provide for a strong relationship between Prussia and Greece that could have some interesting effects going forward. It also wouldn't hurt Greece's relationship with Britain either which is something Leopold would definitely want to consider with any match. Princess Louise would also be about 4 years older than Grand Duchess Alexandra Alexandrovna, meaning a marriage between her and Constantine could take place earlier around 1854/1855 which isn't too far off currently.
Michael Pavlovich's daughters are certainly an option and would help strengthen the connection to Russia for Greece, but they do have a particularly big consanguinity problem as they would be second cousins, twice over via their descent from Tsar Paul of Russia and their descent from King Frederick I of Württemberg. Outside of that, Anna Mikhailovna would probably be a good choice as she would be the same age as Constantine, meaning they could be married immediately and it wouldn't irritate Britain to the same degree as a marriage to Alexandra Alexandrovna would, although I'm sure the British still wouldn't like it too much.
Princess Maria Maximilianovna of Leuchtenberg is another good option as she is the granddaughter of the Tsar and via her grandfather Eugène de Beauharnais, she has a connection to Napoleon II of France, albeit a distant one. The latter may work against her however, as Leopold was not very fond of the House of Bonaparte. Outside of that I can't find anything wrong with Maria Maximilianovna aside from her being a little young currently, she would be only 11 in 1852 meaning her marriage with Constantine couldn't happen until 1857 at the earliest.
Based on my understanding of the Orthodox Church's views on consanguineous marriages, I don't think a marriage between Grand Duchess Alexandra or Prince Constantine would be possible as they are first cousins via their shared descent from Grand Duchess Catherine Pavlona of Württemberg. Apart from that she seems like she would be a good candidate as well, being 14 in 1852 and she would provide another connection to Russia. Her strong support for charity, simple nature, and earnest devotion to the church would also help ingratiate her to the people of Greece as well.
That's a very interesting take on the Ottoman Empire that I hadn't heard before, but it does make some sense. Without a cohesive "Ottoman" identity that could unite the many different ethnic and religious groups together, the Ottoman Empire was bound to experience rebellions and revolts until the empire collapsed or the minorities were killed/driven out. This has also provided me with a lot of insight into Greek education during this period which will certainly be helpful in the future.
I definitely agree, Greece having Crete in 1830 as opposed to 1908 is a huge gain for them over OTL as it provides a much needed boost in population and resources that they didn't have in OTL at this time, the ports of Iraklion, Chania, and Rethymno among others also strengthen Greece's grip of the Aegean benefiting Greece both militarily and commercially. Many Muslim Cretans left the island after the Greek War of Independence fearing retribution and discrimination, but many also choose to stay on Crete as it was their home and all they had ever known. Aside from a few outliers, by 1852, most Cretan Muslims are considered as Greek as any other Greek on the island of Crete; they speak Greek, they write in Greek, they have Greek names, they wear Greek clothing, many even serve in the Greek military and the Greek government, although they don't hold any particularly high public offices.
The success Greece has experienced thus far ITTL is definitely being looked at by many of the ethnic groups in the Ottoman Empire and I would definitely expect the Russians to interfere where they can.
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Maybe a sister of Princess Sophie of Bavaria would work. Or Napoleon might try to cement ties with Russia by marrying into the Romanovs.
@Earl Marshal: I had forgotten to check the identity of Leopold’s wife before suggesting possible brides for their son. Second cousins are fine for Orthodox Church, first cousins in theory not but in practice well that depend from the Tsar (Grand Duchess Catherine married twice to first cousins so Alexander I had nothing against such weddings while Nicholas II was strongly against them for religious reasons but at the end accepted the wedding between his cousin Kyril and his former sister-in-law Ducky who were first cousins and had married without his approval). Alexandra of Oldenburg is a little complicated (but if the Tsar and the King of Greece are interested in the match, the consanguinity is not an insuperable obstacle and the fact who Constantine’s mother is only half-sister of Alexandra’s father would surely help), while the other princesses have no trouble in that department. A Russian wedding for Constantine is almost inevitable for religious reason more than political ones and at London they are smart enough to understand that fact
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Besides that, It may be necessary to butterfly away her death in her infancy .....
That is pretty easy as all the candidates for Constantine were born (and dead for the ones who died young) after the POD
formion
Banned
Being an alternte history fan, it is difficult to fathom how an imperial "ottoman" identity could have developed. I am of the opinion that identity comes mostly from language and secondly from religion. In the Ottoman Empire you have different religions (Sunni Islam, Shia/Alevi Islam, Orthodox/ Catholic/ Monophysite/Syriac Christianity and Judaism). Moreover, the turkish language was not the language of trade, industry and higher education, with greek, armenian, ladino and french mostly used in these areas. Turkish was simply the language of the administration, an inefficient one compared to Europe. So, the turkish language could not be the equivalent of german and russian in the Austro-Hungarian and Russian Empires respectivelly. Even the army and the administration didn't connect the different ethnicities. That's why I cannot see any way that Ottomanism could have succeeded. From my understanding, ottomanist efforts were concentrated towards praising the sultan in a rather superficial manner.
Regarding greek education, in many cases the greek schools in the Ottoman Empire were considered far better than the ones in the greek kingdom. A prestigious example is that of the Evangelical School of Smyrna. Since 1862 its alumni were enrolled in Athens University without examinations. The school had since the late 18th century its own printing shop, while gradually it built a respectable library that by 1922 had 72,000 books and 1,200 rare manuscripts. The school had its own museum with an antiquities collection of 3,000 items (sculptures, ceramics etc) and 15,000 coins. The museum had also natural history and anthropological departments. By the late 19th century, the school had an independent Commercial School and a Foreign Language School (teaching french, english and german). Physics and chemistry laboratories continuously updated their equipment. I remember a family friend whose father studied in the school during 1916-1920, telling me that the high-school curriculum of the time didn't just include newtonian physics but also electrodynamics.
A photo of the Evangelical Schoolhttps://scontent-ams4-1.xx.fbcdn.ne...=0f6cadd0aa9c9437bde81d7ac7347ec4&oe=5EB03BCA
The funny thing is that the Evangelical School was considered a conservative/traditionalist school for much of the 19th century. Its rival, the more progressive Philological Gymnasium of Smyrna by 1813 had included in its curriculum astronomy, physiology and even anatomy. Such schools became hotbeds of both socio-economic ideas and of greek nationalism.
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Agree with the above , the heavy handed approach to dissent with use of divide and conquer control methods and divisions between groups getting stronger rather than weaker is almost a given. The Ottomans also pushed religion more than Turkishness but again in a heavy handed manner. The census indeed lumped most Muslims together rather than as separate Sunni/Shia and ignored ethnic origin in the main. Even getting groups like the Bedouin or Kurds closer was sabotaged by disdain.
Unlike his cousin Napoleon III, Napoleon II does have a good chance at landing a bride from a prominent family thanks to his connection to the Hapsburgs. Even still, I don't think the Romanovs would look favorably upon his candidacy. Instead, I'm looking towards a Bavarian bride for L'Aiglon.
I wasn't entirely sure about that, so thank you for clearing that up for me.
While I was a really limited in applying butterflies outside of Greece before 1830, anything after that is fair game in my opinion, so all these ladies are alive and well as of the last update.
The Evangelical School of Smyrna and the Philological Gymnasium of Smyrna sounds like they were really ahead of their time in many ways, I know I didn't have electrodynamics or physiology classes in high school, heck I barely had calculus and chemistry in high school. I wonder how these schools in the Ottoman Empire will be effected by a bigger, stronger, and wealthier Greece, especially with its bigger emphasis on education ITTL.Being an alternte history fan, it is difficult to fathom how an imperial "ottoman" identity could have developed. I am of the opinion that identity comes mostly from language and secondly from religion. In the Ottoman Empire you have different religions (Sunni Islam, Shia/Alevi Islam, Orthodox/ Catholic/ Monophysite/Syriac Christianity and Judaism). Moreover, the turkish language was not the language of trade, industry and higher education, with greek, armenian, ladino and french mostly used in these areas. Turkish was simply the language of the administration, an inefficient one compared to Europe. So, the turkish language could not be the equivalent of german and russian in the Austro-Hungarian and Russian Empires respectivelly. Even the army and the administration didn't connect the different ethnicities. That's why I cannot see any way that Ottomanism could have succeeded. From my understanding, ottomanist efforts were concentrated towards praising the sultan in a rather superficial manner.
Regarding greek education, in many cases the greek schools in the Ottoman Empire were considered far better than the ones in the greek kingdom. A prestigious example is that of the Evangelical School of Smyrna. Since 1862 its alumni were enrolled in Athens University without examinations. The school had since the late 18th century its own printing shop, while gradually it built a respectable library that by 1922 had 72,000 books and 1,200 rare manuscripts. The school had its own museum with an antiquities collection of 3,000 items (sculptures, ceramics etc) and 15,000 coins. The museum had also natural history and anthropological departments. By the late 19th century, the school had an independent Commercial School and a Foreign Language School (teaching french, english and german). Physics and chemistry laboratories continuously updated their equipment. I remember a family friend whose father studied in the school during 1916-1920, telling my that the high-school curriculum of the time didn't just include newtonian physics but also electrodynamics.
https://scontent-ams4-1.xx.fbcdn.ne...=0f6cadd0aa9c9437bde81d7ac7347ec4&oe=5EB03BCA
The funny thing is that the Evangelical School was considered a conservative/traditionalist school for much of the 19th century. Its rival, the more progressive Philological Gymnasium of Smyrna by 1813 had included in its curriculum astronomy, physiology and even anatomy. Such schools became hotbeds of both socio-economic ideas and of greek nationalism.
I definitely agree, the Ottomans lumping different ethnic groups together based solely on their religion probably didn't help them and if anything, it likely made things worse for the Ottomans in the long run, especially once nationalism became a thing.
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formion
Banned
Indeed. If the Ottomans couldn't be inclusive with different muslim denominations, I cannot think of a senario where they would succeed with christians. I would like to quote Dr. Muftugil in the previously mentioned thesis. https://pure.uva.nl/ws/files/1303713/96030_thesis.pdf
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It was indeed. I would argue that it was more difficult to become a member of faculty at the school than the Athens Uni one. The school demonstrated the importance Ottoman Greeks gave to education. I haven't found any references that the school lacked funds at any time of its history. It provided free education for poor students and it depended upon donations. Even when it was burned in 1842, it was rebuilt in only 3 years and its library starting from scratch once more, had even more books in 1845.
During the ottoman educational reform efforts described in the paper above, when the ottoman state struggled in providing religious education with nationalist overtones, the Evangelical School provided german-based empirical psychology as a course. The difference is quite clear.
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Maybe he could marry Princess Alexandra of Bavaria.
https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Princess_Alexandra_of_Bavaria
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formion
Banned
The longevity of the Ottoman Empire was also doomed by its court system.
Here is a well cited article on the subject https://economics.yale.edu/sites/de...ps-Seminars/Economic-History/kuran-110228.pdf
It is important to mention that there was no movement to reform the court system! Its not as if there were attempts to change it that failed. There was simply no interest in fixing this disfunctional system. It seems to me that the court system both significantly hampered economic relations between muslims and non-muslims and set up a bias system against non-muslims.
Here is a well cited article on the subject https://economics.yale.edu/sites/de...ps-Seminars/Economic-History/kuran-110228.pdf
It is important to mention that there was no movement to reform the court system! Its not as if there were attempts to change it that failed. There was simply no interest in fixing this disfunctional system. It seems to me that the court system both significantly hampered economic relations between muslims and non-muslims and set up a bias system against non-muslims.
the constitution that greece has at this moment is the constitution of 1827 rigth?
62-64 is near, i could see the greeks doing some revisions to it(obviously without the change to a crowned democracy)
https://www.hellenicparliament.gr/en/Vouli-ton-Ellinon/To-Politevma/Syntagmatiki-Istoria/
also does greece have its otl flag?(white cross with blue background and crown in the middle)
In OTL constitutions were the direct results of anti-monarchist revolts in 1844 and 1862 with the 1911 revision being again the result of the 1909 revolution. TTL you'd have the 1827 constitution as updated in 1833 to incorporate a king. Given how it already was as liberal or more than the 1864/1911 constitution...
And the Greek flag was set by the first national assembly in 1822.
yeah you are rigth. i mistook the flag from 1863 was the official flag of the kingdom of greece at the time of its independence
https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Flag_..._Flag_of_Greece_(1863-1924_and_1935-1973).svg
https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Flag_of_Greece#/media/File:Flag_of_Greece_(1822-1978).svg
thougth really i was just asking which is the official flag of greece at the moment
Edit:I wonder how greece will do in the great exhibition and what it will exhibit
furthermore will the olympic games be an event where only greeks are allowed to participate?
since it seems greece will attempt to revive them.(not saying that the olympic games cannot be an international event,greece could host it own olympic games and send athletes to compete in the international ones)but really historically it was an event where only greeks were allowed to participate
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formion
Banned
It took me some time to respond because I wanted to ponder over it and do some research.
As Lascaris has mentioned, this new Greece will produce more teachers and scientists/engineers and quite possibly better trained ones, compared to OTL. I doubt schools like the Evangelical Schools will be that much affected. Being progressive for their time, they sought out educational paradigms out of the best Britain, Germany and France had to offer. I think that the butterflies you unleashed will mostly affect mid and low quality schools in the Ottoman Empire. More teachers and more money for education will mean more schools. While building more Evangelical-level schools is prohibitive in costs, I think we will see more schools of a lower quality level. In Anatolia the butterflies should be "minor". I find plausible to see more Greeks with a satisfactory for the era education, but most importantly I think the educational efforts will focus in reaching more isolated greek communities such as the Cappadocian and Pontic Greeks. Moreover, I think a greater greek educational effort will result in a lesser american missionary success. In otl American protestant missionaries had a (very) limited success in converting Anatolian Greeks to protestantism and establishing american education. I think in TTL the Americans will focus even more their efforts towards the Armenian and Levantine communities. I doubt a better greek educational system will affect the Armenians much- they had an already established national identity that in the end would be served better by "neutral" american and french schools (other than armenian ones of course). At best you may see a few middle and upper-middle class Armenians choosing a prestigious greek school.
The great butterfly however, are the Balkans. There, the identity was based on adherence to the Constantinopolitan Patriarchate. The actual educational frontier is in utilizing all those additional teachers and professionals to reach orthodox Slavic and Albanian populations. The majority of Aromanians had already adopted a fierce hellenic identity. I would argue that educational efforts will focus on the conceptual boundary of the Jirecek Line (https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Jireček_Line). Let me provide an example. Here is a map with the year-round movement of the Aromanian pastoralists https://upload.wikimedia.org/wikipedia/commons/9/95/Transhumance_ways_of_the_Vlachs.jpeg
In OTL, Aromanian towns such as Moscopole, Monastir/Bitola and Siatista were centers of greek learning. Better education would make the semi-nomad Aromanians as promoters of the hellenic identity across their migratory routes. In the same spirit, orthodox albanian speakers have a very decent chance of developing a hellenic identity, especially since prominent Souliotes such as Markos Botsaris are doing better in TTL.
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