Pre-Columbian Native American cultures, PODs and alternate histories discussion

[Hydra1234]

Okay, that is a good point, but shouldn’t there have been greater transfer of crops from Polynesia to South America and from South America to Polynesia? I know it could be possible because somehow the Polynesians got the sweet potato, so why didn’t the Polynesians and Native American South Americans exchange other crops?

Because an exchange on the magnitude of the Columbia Exchange requires substantial and prolonged contact. Most of the crops of the Americas weren't cultivated at large scales in Europe/Africa for centuries despite thousands transiting between the continents each month, and the Old World has a much larger climate variety than Polynesia for New World crops to find a niche in Old World agriculture.

Besides, it's not just sweet potatoes. Tumeric, whiteweed, chickens, and coconuts have been argued to have been exchanged.

 

[HyperMuscularDemon]

Because an exchange on the magnitude of the Columbia Exchange requires substantial and prolonged contact. Most of the crops of the Americas weren't cultivated at large scales in Europe/Africa for centuries despite thousands transiting between the continents each month, and the Old World has a much larger climate variety than Polynesia for New World crops to find a niche in Old World agriculture.

Besides, it's not just sweet potatoes. Tumeric, whiteweed, chickens, and coconuts have been argued to have been exchanged.

Ah okay. You have a good point. Still though, the Polynesians could have settled the Galápagos Islands and traded with the Native American South Americans or built trading station on the coast of South America.

 

[Hydra1234]

Ah okay. You have a good point. Still though, the Polynesians could have settled the Galápagos Islands and traded with the Native American South Americans or built trading station on the coast of South America.

Polynesian settlement was a very gradual process, and it only happened once the islands reached carrying capacity, not out of economic reasons like the Phoenicians or the subsequent medieval to modern European states.

That was a process that took centuries, and it took further centuries of back-and-forth journeying to firmly establish a settlement on the islands. The islands closest to Rapa Nui were settled after the Long Pause, so starting from around the 1st century AD, it would take several centuries for those islands to be populated, then another few centuries for Rapa Nui to be settled and reach capacity, then another few centuries to establish any sort of long-term colonization on South America proper, during the last stage which climate changes resulted in significant issues that prevented expansion. Plus, Rapa Nui to South America in a single voyage is on the upper bounds of Polynesian wayfaring range too, likely increasing the cost and time to establish a proper settlement in South America.

Also, the Galapagos Islands are on the westbound part of the South Pacific Gyre, which would mean a direct route from the Marquesas would be going against the current. A route following the currents ends up in Chile/Bolivia.

 

[Kerguelen]

I still wonder how the introduction of Polynesian pig farming to South America would’ve made a big difference, we know they disrupted a lot of ecosystems by introducing disease and eating up the wildlife, but their large diets and hardy nature made them a reliable source of meat

 

[Arkenfolm]

I still wonder how the introduction of Polynesian pig farming to South America would’ve made a big difference, we know they disrupted a lot of ecosystems by introducing disease and eating up the wildlife, but their large diets and hardy nature made them a reliable source of meat

Probably less than other parts of the Americas since in the Andes they already had guinea pigs to eat. IIRC they had guinea pigs in the coast, and did occasionally import llamas (probably to eat or sacrifice). But maybe more important in areas like Chile where those animals weren't as common.

 

[EnvarKadri]

Game changer for central and southern chile. Probably would spread fast to the eastern side of patagonia and from there to the pampas and eventually tupi and guarani peoples.

Probably less than other parts of the Americas since in the Andes they already had guinea pigs to eat. IIRC they had guinea pigs in the coast, and did occasionally import llamas (probably to eat or sacrifice). But maybe more important in areas like Chile where those animals weren't as common.

 

[Flashman]

Game changer for central and southern chile. Probably would spread fast to the eastern side of patagonia and from there to the pampas and eventually tupi and guarani peoples.

Don't Chile and Patagonia already have guanacos? While I don't they were domesticated in Patagonia, it seems like if pigs reached Patagonia they would reach it as feral animals. So I don't see why it would kick-start domestication, seems like it would just be a new wild protein source.

 

[EnvarKadri]

Don't Chile and Patagonia already have guanacos? While I don't they were domesticated in Patagonia, it seems like if pigs reached Patagonia they would reach it as feral animals. So I don't see why it would kick-start domestication, seems like it would just be a new wild protein source.

Could be, but if the domestic chicken in chile is the result of the Polynesians I dunno why wouldn't ancient araucanians get domestic pigs too. And if anything rewilded pigs are still able to be re domesticated unlike guanacos.

 

[Arkenfolm]

Could be, but if the domestic chicken in chile is the result of the Polynesians I dunno why wouldn't ancient araucanians get domestic pigs too. And if anything rewilded pigs are still able to be re domesticated unlike guanacos.

Wouldn't over the centuries they just evolve into the terrifying feral pigs like the ones in Texas that grow to enormous sizes, are very aggressive, and have killed people? I guess they could be domesticated, but that seems incredibly dangerous. And there's no large animal predators in Chile bigger than the mountain lion and those only kill small or injured feral pigs, so the population could grow quite large.

 

[EnvarKadri]

Wouldn't over the centuries they just evolve into the terrifying feral pigs like the ones in Texas that grow to enormous sizes, are very aggressive, and have killed people? I guess they could be domesticated, but that seems incredibly dangerous. And there's no large animal predators in Chile bigger than the mountain lion and those only kill small or injured feral pigs, so the population could grow quite large.

Mapuches develop a warrior society not to combat the incas but the feral hogs

 

[Kerguelen]

Wouldn't over the centuries they just evolve into the terrifying feral pigs like the ones in Texas that grow to enormous sizes, are very aggressive, and have killed people? I guess they could be domesticated, but that seems incredibly dangerous. And there's no large animal predators in Chile bigger than the mountain lion and those only kill small or injured feral pigs, so the population could grow quite large.

No lol, the wild pigs in Texas are hybrids between wild boars and domestic pigs, the pigs introduced in South America in this scenario can still be easily redomesticated.

Mapuches develop a warrior society not to combat the incas but the feral hogs

Would be pretty interesting to see indigenous societies in the Rioplata shift away from nomadism due to the domestication of these pigs. IIRC the Chuarra relying on the migration patterns of the guanacos was a major reason for their nomadic lifestyle so maybe the pigs, being an extra source of protein with a wider diet, causes them to form more settled societies and more cohesive political structures.

 

[Arkenfolm]

Would be pretty interesting to see indigenous societies in the Rioplata shift away from nomadism due to the domestication of these pigs. IIRC the Chuarra relying on the migration patterns of the guanacos was a major reason for their nomadic lifestyle so maybe the pigs, being an extra source of protein with a wider diet, causes them to form more settled societies and more cohesive political structures.

I doubt they'd be much more settled because there's a limited amount of food for pigs in a given area so they'd just bring the pigs along with them on their seasonal round. Hunter gatherers rarely suffered from lack of protein, but other nutrients and vitamins.

 

[EnvarKadri]

I doubt they'd be much more settled because there's a limited amount of food for pigs in a given area so they'd just bring the pigs along with them on their seasonal round. Hunter gatherers rarely suffered from lack of protein, but other nutrients and vitamins.

Thats why, if anything, pigs would represent a much bigger contribution to guaranis and tupis north of Río de la Plata who actually did practice settled life and agriculture. Lack of animal protein is more of a problem for peasants. Specially in the Americas. Hell dispate having guinea pigs, the andean peasants would probably benefit from pigs.

 

[HyperMuscularDemon]

The Polynesians could also introduce crops such as the coconut and the banana, which might allow for bigger populations to be sustained in Pre Colombian South America. In particular, the mulberry tree might as well greatly advance the Native American civilizations of Pre Colombian South America, because Mulberry can be used to make paper.

 

[Arkenfolm]

The Polynesians could also introduce crops such as the coconut and the banana, which might allow for bigger populations to be sustained in Pre Colombian South America. In particular, the mulberry tree might as well greatly advance the Native American civilizations of Pre Colombian South America, because Mulberry can be used to make paper.

The former is definitely interesting, even if it would have to come from the Galapagos Islands since Rapa Nui is fairly far south (and remote from South America). They'd be a great addition to coastal South America's crops. A part of me thinks that it could result in a Chimu wank, since they were the most powerful coastal state in South America at the time the Polynesians were there. Although I recall another TL here (Land of Sweetness) which also had a heavy focus on indigenous trade where it was actually the Mantenos who get that boost and create a large empire in the Ecuador-Colombia-northern Peru area. But I like the Chimu because they seem like an interesting counterpart to the Inca--the Inca's foremost god was the sun, the Chimu's was the moon, and the Chimu were a coastal state based on trade (IIRC) while the Inca were a highland state and a strict command economy.

I think for the coast of northwestern South America, the ideal would be to reduce the highlands into a zone of exploitation. They send valuable goods--metals, llamas, wood/charcoal--in exchange for shells, local manufactures, and trade goods (possibly from as far as Mesoamerica so things like chocolate, incense, etc.). This would also break up the command economy that was traditional in the region and make it more like a typical corvee system as found all over the world. Basically a "monetisation" of the economy (although I'm not sure how complex the shells = money thing was compared to how economies like 13th century Japan were re-monetised because of foreign trade and a newfound proliferation of coins).

Mulberry paper I'm not sure. They could've just used mud bricks as tablets if they evolved an alphabet, or perhaps have evolved their own script if necessary. The highland Andeans used quipu--woven knots--to record certain information even if it was more of a form of accounting. There was indigenous Mesoamerican "paper", so I'm sure there's some native plant in that area would could have been made into paper if necessary.

 

[HyperMuscularDemon]

The former is definitely interesting, even if it would have to come from the Galapagos Islands since Rapa Nui is fairly far south (and remote from South America). They'd be a great addition to coastal South America's crops. A part of me thinks that it could result in a Chimu wank, since they were the most powerful coastal state in South America at the time the Polynesians were there. Although I recall another TL here (Land of Sweetness) which also had a heavy focus on indigenous trade where it was actually the Mantenos who get that boost and create a large empire in the Ecuador-Colombia-northern Peru area. But I like the Chimu because they seem like an interesting counterpart to the Inca--the Inca's foremost god was the sun, the Chimu's was the moon, and the Chimu were a coastal state based on trade (IIRC) while the Inca were a highland state and a strict command economy.

I think for the coast of northwestern South America, the ideal would be to reduce the highlands into a zone of exploitation. They send valuable goods--metals, llamas, wood/charcoal--in exchange for shells, local manufactures, and trade goods (possibly from as far as Mesoamerica so things like chocolate, incense, etc.). This would also break up the command economy that was traditional in the region and make it more like a typical corvee system as found all over the world. Basically a "monetisation" of the economy (although I'm not sure how complex the shells = money thing was compared to how economies like 13th century Japan were re-monetised because of foreign trade and a newfound proliferation of coins).

Mulberry paper I'm not sure. They could've just used mud bricks as tablets if they evolved an alphabet, or perhaps have evolved their own script if necessary. The highland Andeans used quipu--woven knots--to record certain information even if it was more of a form of accounting. There was indigenous Mesoamerican "paper", so I'm sure there's some native plant in that area would could have been made into paper if necessary.

Good reply. It could be possible for the Inca empire to still arise and take over the Chimu, but still utilize the Chimu trade routes to maintain contact and trade with Mesoamerica and maybe even the Pueblo world. There even could be a chance that the Aztec empire and the Inca empire will be in direct contact with each other. This could spread metallurgy and writing in both ways, and maybe even ideas and technology. The potato and quinoa could also spread to Mesoamerica.