Potential NATO buyers for the F15 ?

[Blue cat]

While pondering the current thread regarding the Tornado I started to wonder about which other NATO nations considered buying the F15 in our time line ?

I believe Canada considered buying them ?

Did the UK formally consider purchasing them ?

Did any other NATO nations express any interest ?

Any thoughts about a joint Canadian / UK program to perhaps build a slightly different version under license ? (Perhaps the UK built the engines and Canada built the air frames ?) Or would the both nations have been better off simply buying them from the US ?

 

[weasel_airlift]

F-15s are pretty expensive, which may well be why no one else looked into them. I think that would need to be changed.

 

[Monk78]

FRG should have been given F-15s it was imperative the frontline state had the best aircraft, even if this had to be subsidized by US

 

[Domrémy-Scorniçesti Axis]

Can

While pondering the current thread regarding the Tornado I started to wonder about which other NATO nations considered buying the F15 in our time line ?

I believe Canada considered buying them ?

Did the UK formally consider purchasing them ?

Did any other NATO nations express any interest ?

Any thoughts about a joint Canadian / UK program to perhaps build a slightly different version under license ? (Perhaps the UK built the engines and Canada built the air frames ?) Or would the both nations have been better off simply buying them from the US ?

Canada is the most likely to purchase and operate a CF-15. Other NATO allies are less likely to buy one due to the price.

 

[L'amateur d'aéroplanes]

It is said that the F-15 was not exported to NATO to avoid an arms race. Hence the fact that there is no Mig-25 in the Warsaw Pact.

But I recall this wink with the TF-15A with the French roundel during an evaluation by French pilots. April 1976 :

 

[YYJ]

Canada did consider the F-15, but went with the F-18, since at the time it was more of a multi-role aircraft. Maybe because of price too.

 

[Monk78]

It is said that the F-15 was not exported to NATO to avoid an arms race. Hence the fact that there is no Mig-25 in the Warsaw Pact.

But I recall this wink with the TF-15A with the French roundel during an evaluation by French pilots. April 1976 :

I highly doubt the greedy defense companies were ever shackled by such moral arguments

MiG-25 is a totally different beast and not equivalent to F-15 and if that is the rationale used then are we going to admit we were too scared to supply our Allies with top tier equipment just as Soviets were

 

[CV12Hornet]

Canada did consider the F-15, but went with the F-18, since at the time it was more of a multi-role aircraft. Maybe because of price too.

I doubt price was much of a factor, given the F/A-18 was almost as expensive as the F-15.

Besides the RAF, the only other NATO member I can see buying F-15s is Italy. They have the dosh for it, and the need with their air defense capabilities relying on the F-104S. It would take the place of the F-16 and Tornado ADV as the “interim fighter that becomes not so interim”.

I highly doubt the greedy defense companies were ever shackled by such moral arguments

McDonnell Douglas still answers to the US government and most military sales of this size and expense go through the DoD.

 

[The Oncoming Storm]

I think the U.K. had it on a shortlist as a replacement for the Phantom but decided to develop the Tornado ADV instead.

 

[L'amateur d'aéroplanes]

I remind you that the F-20 Tigershark was developed to replace the F-16 for countries that would not have been authorized to acquire it. It was Reagan by removing a number of limitations on the export of arms which de facto sunk this project since the F-16 was available to almost everyone (why Mexico only had F-5s outside of age by the way?). The F-22 remained unexportable, the various bombers ditto.

 

[Blue cat]

I doubt price was much of a factor, given the F/A-18 was almost as expensive as the F-15.

Besides the RAF, the only other NATO member I can see buying F-15s is Italy. They have the dosh for it, and the need with their air defense capabilities relying on the F-104S. It would take the place of the F-16 and Tornado ADV as the “interim fighter that becomes not so interim”.


McDonnell Douglas still answers to the US government and most military sales of this size and expense go through the DoD.

I suspect the F/A 18 won the Canadian competition due being multi role, having AIM7 capability out of the box (so to speak) and I recall reading it was considered to have more growth potential than the F16. (Which given how long the CF18 has remained in service may have been more important over time ?)

Price and having two engines likely played at least some role in the decision, I suspect, but I doubt either of those factors were key ?

I also seem to recall reading that the Canadians wanted to buy something that was already in service. That being said I also recall reading that at least some consideration was given the F18L. So perhaps a multi role F15 might have been considered (other than waiting for the F15E) but in so far as McDonnell Douglas also offered the F/A18 which won the competition I don’t see why they would have put effort into that unless Canada requested it ?

 

[YYJ]

I suspect the F/A 18 won the Canadian competition due being multi role, having AIM7 capability out of the box (so to speak) and I recall reading it was considered to have more growth potential than the F16. (Which given how long the CF18 has remained in service may have been more important over time ?)

Price and having two engines likely played at least some role in the decision, I suspect, but I doubt either of those factors were key ?

I also seem to recall reading that the Canadians wanted to buy something that was already in service. That being said I also recall reading that at least some consideration was given the F18L. So perhaps a multi role F15 might have been considered (other than waiting for the F15E) but in so far as McDonnell Douglas also offered the F/A18 which won the competition I don’t see why they would have put effort into that unless Canada requested it ?

I recall two engines being a factor in Canadian procurement.

 

[Blue cat]

I recall two engines being a factor in Canadian procurement.

I suspect it was but my understanding was that the two finalists were the F16 and the F/A 18 so presumably it wasn’t a key requirement ?

 

[DifferentOutcomes]

I have a vague memory of McDonnell Douglas offering the USAF the most recent version of the F-15 (whatever that was) at a ridiculously low price (20-25million each?) at some point in the mid to late 1980s (?). They just wanted a fixed long term contract that couldn't be cancelled out from underneath them. It was in part an effort to stave off losing "market share" to the F-16, I think.

Imagine if the AF had taken them up on it and MDD had been able to sell to the world (or at least close allies) at the same price...

I can't seem to find anything to substantiate my memory of this...

 

[Lewndan]

In late 90s and after the recent at that time crisis with Turkey, Greece considered the F15 for new purchase in the F15H version.
There was strong indication that it was the preferred option by the Minister of defence, but in the last minute the F16 was selected.
The F15 selection at that time was an interesting What if of the Hellenic Air Force fate.

 

[Lascaris]

In late 90s and after the recent at that time crisis with Turkey, Greece considered the F15 for new purchase in the F15H version.
There was strong indication that it was the preferred option by the Minister of defence, but in the last minute the F16 was selected.
The F15 selection at that time was an interesting What if of the Hellenic Air Force fate.

Supposedly Boeing was so certain they were getting the order that they had start building the first 4 aircraft at St Louis. And it was not just the minister of defense the air force staff also wanted F-15. Economically wise 36 F-15H would had cost something around $3.5 billion. Greece at that time spent $2.7 billion on 60 F-16C, $1.4 billion on 15 new and 10 modernized Mirage 2000-5 and $315 million on modernizing F-4E. So very roughly enough to buy 36-40 new F-15H and modernize the existing Mirage 2000 to 2000-5 instead of buying new machines.