Post-war expansion of a neutral Ottoman Empire after an Entente victory

For purposes of the discussion, we'll assume the following:

1. Ottomans remain neutral (and are allowed to stay that way, with stuff like Britain not invading Mesopotamia or a parallel Greco-Turkish war erupting)
2. The war drags on for ~4 years, give or take, with everyone exhausted and Germany defeated
3. Russia has collapsed into a fractured civil war, much like the one IOTL
4. Bulgaria was part of the CP

Off the bat, the main problem with this is that Ottomans staying neutral greatly helps the Entente, meaning the war may very well end sooner. Therefor, let's add some factors that bring back balance. These are by no means perfect, and you may very well substitute your own, but their point is to help out the CP war effort:

1. Galicia '14 ends up as an A-H victory instead of the unmitigated disaster of OTL
2. Italy stays neutral for a wee bit more, say a year, lifting some pressure off the Austrians
3. There is no Brusilov offensive and reorganization of the army. Instead, things go from bad to worse for the Russians, leadership wise.
4. As a consequence of #3, Romania never enters the war except at its very end, when the CPs are already collapsing anyway
5. There is another colonial theater to distract the Entente somewhat - perhaps the pro-German coup in China works. Who knows.

Thus, by the end of 1918, the world is in a similar situation to OTL, except that the Ottomans had stayed neutral through all of it. It's maybe not the most likely of outcomes, but it's by no means ASB either.

So, what now? Perhaps ITTL the Ottomans did a move similar to Romania in 1918 (as well as in our alternate 1918) or to Turkey in 1945 OTL, and declare war on Germany & friends a couple of days before the latter surrender anyway. What can we expect them to gain out of all of it?

For a start, it's nigh-certain that the economic concessions Constantinople had granted to Germany, Austria and Russia are gone. Maybe or maybe not the did the same to the ones offered to Britain & France at a moment where these seemed weak. The massive loss of life experienced by them is averted, including the Armenian Genocide. The Arabs never revolt in the first place. The railway network may have been strengthened throughout, but is by no means complete.

Next, territory.

What I think is possible is that the rather loose control over Arabia is strengthened ITTL. The Ottoman vassals of the Emirate of Jabal Shammar have been fully incorporated at a minimum, with regular Ottoman army outposts dotted across the desert. Ryadh may well have been conquered by an Ottoman-Rashidi force ITTL from the Saudis whilst the British were to busy to care. What happens to Kuwait is uncertain, though Turkish influence would be much increased if there is now a rail line running all the way from Baghdad to Basra
Arabia_1914.png


To the north, the Caucasus is almost free real-estate. Azerbaijan was effortlessly taken from the Russians at the tail-end of the war anyway - IOTL, most of the rest of the Russian Caucasus is occupied once the large professional army Ottoman army, who has had 4 years to build up supplies near the border, marches in, and there's hardly anything apart from disorganized militias there to oppose them. Chechnya and Dagestan, with their Muslim majorities, are probably occupied as well (with the Ottomans even being viewed favorably by the locals), and depending on just how deep the Russian disorganization runs, parts of Circassia maybe as well. With the latter having been the site of a Russian genocide (https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Circassian_genocide) only a couple of decades prior, many Circassian refugees which had been welcomed into Ottoman lands may try to return there. Lastly, there is Crimea, which at the time was IIRC about a third Tatar/Muslim, a third Russian and a third others. Whether or not the Ottomans try to make an attempt to retake it, idk.

To the east, we have Iran, which at the time had a Russian sphere of influence verging on outright occupation in the north (and an equivalent British sphere in the south). With the collapse of Russia, the Ottomans may attempt to flex their muscles somewhat in this area (which logistically was not beyond their reach, given that they briefly managed to occupy Tabriz twice OTL during the war. Further east, there was Russian central Asia, which OTL saw significant Turkmen opposition to the Soviets, in which none other than Enver Pasha was involved. Once they seize Baku, I think it's a near certainty that the Ottomans will become involved in supporting these Muslim uprisings, meaning that by the mid 20s we might be getting some intense naval action in the Caspian, as the Russian state (whether White or Bolshevik) attempts to cut these efforts off.

Lastly, in the west, the Ottomans will stake their claim to Eastern Thrace bits of eastern Bulgaria at the peace conference where there were substantial Turkish populations, or maybe even a return to 1912 borders. Whilst the former are possibly granted by the Entente, the latter are probably rejected. Finally, there are the Dodecanese, which the Italians were nominally obliged to return according to the Treaty of Ouchy, a fact which the Balkan wars and then WW1 prevented. Here, they may run out of excuses, although Ottoman attempts to occupy them may very well lead to a war with Greece

1611313485165.png
 
Random thoughts [in no particular order]

- I simply don't see the Ottomans siding with the Entente - at least, not while Russia is part of that. Lot of old, bad blood there - if the Porte wanted anything back, it would be the territories lost to Petersberg in 1878.

- We also have the issue is that the 'Young Turks' are still in control of the Empire. That while some [like Enver] are obsessed with the whole 'pan-Islamism' idea, others [like Kemal] have a much more circumspect view; in RL, the guy didn't even express too much hankering to see his hometown of Salonika to be wrestled back from the Greeks and was ultimately willing to give up the claims to Mosul for a peace treaty. In this, I suspect the most likely result will be the 'pragmatics' informally allying with the conservative establishment to block the more outlandish dreams of Enver and co.

In this, I think the most likely situation will be that excepting a few 'small changes' [Empire to have Kars, Batum & Rhodes returned, perhaps a bit of a re-jigging of the Thracian border to make Ederine more defensible etc] the Empire won't reach out for more. The general feeling I get from the immediate pre-War situation was that the Young Turks simply wanted to be left alone to modernise the Empire.

- Speaking of the Russian Civil War, I could see Constantinople intervening. The Entente will need her goodwill to supply the Whites in the Ukraine, for starters. A smart move on their part may be not to try to directly fight the Bolsheviks or aid the Czarist Generals, but to instead ferment separatism in the Caucasus. That like the Germans and the Baltic states, the Ottomans are the midwives for the return of Armenia, Georgia and Azerbaijan as independent entities - they don't want to rule them [in fact, accept it would be almost impossible], simply to have 'influence' over them and for them to be a buffer between themselves and the Russians. And like with the Baltics, Lenin will have to 'accept' the loss of the southern Caucasus - for now, at least.

I don't think they'd care much about the Crimea. That would be the German puppet Ukraine's, then the Whites, then the Reds. Suspect the Porte would be way too wary of picking a fight with any of the above. However, it's possible that as the Civil War is winding and the region's in the grip of famine that Constantinople - in the name of the Caliph - organises a mass evacuation of the Tatars 'as fellow Believers' but really so they could use them to settle under-populated areas of Anatolia. Esp useful if the loss of the Ottoman Greeks happens.

- There's a decent chance that the Porte uses the excuse of war to re-negotiate the Capitulations. If canny enough to play each side off the other, they may get a very good deal [plus, they can cancel the CP and Russian ones at the appropriate time]. Perhaps the 'price' of allowing the French/British ships to supply Denikin and Wrangel through the Black Sea is ending said capitulations?

- Unfortunately, I strongly suspect that the Armenian Genocide, Greek expulsions etc will still happen in some form. The Empire was repeatedly having bouts of intra-ethnic violence; in this, I suspect that Anatolia will become homogeneously Turkish/Kurdish by the 40s by the latest [or at least, almost wholly Muslim]. In fact, Constantinople may use the immediate post-War confusion to perform a mass 'exchange of populations' with for example, Greece and Bulgaria. This may mean if nothing else, Izmir isn't burnt down.
 

Osman Aga

Banned
Random thoughts [in no particular order]

- I simply don't see the Ottomans siding with the Entente - at least, not while Russia is part of that. Lot of old, bad blood there - if the Porte wanted anything back, it would be the territories lost to Petersberg in 1878.

- We also have the issue is that the 'Young Turks' are still in control of the Empire. That while some [like Enver] are obsessed with the whole 'pan-Islamism' idea, others [like Kemal] have a much more circumspect view; in RL, the guy didn't even express too much hankering to see his hometown of Salonika to be wrestled back from the Greeks and was ultimately willing to give up the claims to Mosul for a peace treaty. In this, I suspect the most likely result will be the 'pragmatics' informally allying with the conservative establishment to block the more outlandish dreams of Enver and co.

In this, I think the most likely situation will be that excepting a few 'small changes' [Empire to have Kars, Batum & Rhodes returned, perhaps a bit of a re-jigging of the Thracian border to make Ederine more defensible etc] the Empire won't reach out for more. The general feeling I get from the immediate pre-War situation was that the Young Turks simply wanted to be left alone to modernise the Empire.

- Speaking of the Russian Civil War, I could see Constantinople intervening. The Entente will need her goodwill to supply the Whites in the Ukraine, for starters. A smart move on their part may be not to try to directly fight the Bolsheviks or aid the Czarist Generals, but to instead ferment separatism in the Caucasus. That like the Germans and the Baltic states, the Ottomans are the midwives for the return of Armenia, Georgia and Azerbaijan as independent entities - they don't want to rule them [in fact, accept it would be almost impossible], simply to have 'influence' over them and for them to be a buffer between themselves and the Russians. And like with the Baltics, Lenin will have to 'accept' the loss of the southern Caucasus - for now, at least.

I don't think they'd care much about the Crimea. That would be the German puppet Ukraine's, then the Whites, then the Reds. Suspect the Porte would be way too wary of picking a fight with any of the above. However, it's possible that as the Civil War is winding and the region's in the grip of famine that Constantinople - in the name of the Caliph - organises a mass evacuation of the Tatars 'as fellow Believers' but really so they could use them to settle under-populated areas of Anatolia. Esp useful if the loss of the Ottoman Greeks happens.

- There's a decent chance that the Porte uses the excuse of war to re-negotiate the Capitulations. If canny enough to play each side off the other, they may get a very good deal [plus, they can cancel the CP and Russian ones at the appropriate time]. Perhaps the 'price' of allowing the French/British ships to supply Denikin and Wrangel through the Black Sea is ending said capitulations?

- Unfortunately, I strongly suspect that the Armenian Genocide, Greek expulsions etc will still happen in some form. The Empire was repeatedly having bouts of intra-ethnic violence; in this, I suspect that Anatolia will become homogeneously Turkish/Kurdish by the 40s by the latest [or at least, almost wholly Muslim]. In fact, Constantinople may use the immediate post-War confusion to perform a mass 'exchange of populations' with for example, Greece and Bulgaria. This may mean if nothing else, Izmir isn't burnt down.
Read the OP again.
 
Yep, read it. Is there a problem?

The major difference between my thoughts and the OP's is not about there being a neutral Empire, more that I suspect the Empire wouldn't be that willing to 'gamble' with foreign adventures [for WWI was the ultimate gamble, and they lost]. It also takes into the fact that a lot of the leading Turks felt that the Empire needed strengthening, reforming, developing - not simply 'expansion'.
 
Last edited:

Osman Aga

Banned
For purposes of the discussion, we'll assume the following:

1. Ottomans remain neutral (and are allowed to stay that way, with stuff like Britain not invading Mesopotamia or a parallel Greco-Turkish war erupting)
2. The war drags on for ~4 years, give or take, with everyone exhausted and Germany defeated
3. Russia has collapsed into a fractured civil war, much like the one IOTL
4. Bulgaria was part of the CP

Off the bat, the main problem with this is that Ottomans staying neutral greatly helps the Entente, meaning the war may very well end sooner. Therefor, let's add some factors that bring back balance. These are by no means perfect, and you may very well substitute your own, but their point is to help out the CP war effort:

1. Galicia '14 ends up as an A-H victory instead of the unmitigated disaster of OTL
2. Italy stays neutral for a wee bit more, say a year, lifting some pressure off the Austrians
3. There is no Brusilov offensive and reorganization of the army. Instead, things go from bad to worse for the Russians, leadership wise.
4. As a consequence of #3, Romania never enters the war except at its very end, when the CPs are already collapsing anyway
5. There is another colonial theater to distract the Entente somewhat - perhaps the pro-German coup in China works. Who knows.

Thus, by the end of 1918, the world is in a similar situation to OTL, except that the Ottomans had stayed neutral through all of it. It's maybe not the most likely of outcomes, but it's by no means ASB either.

So, what now? Perhaps ITTL the Ottomans did a move similar to Romania in 1918 (as well as in our alternate 1918) or to Turkey in 1945 OTL, and declare war on Germany & friends a couple of days before the latter surrender anyway. What can we expect them to gain out of all of it?

For a start, it's nigh-certain that the economic concessions Constantinople had granted to Germany, Austria and Russia are gone. Maybe or maybe not the did the same to the ones offered to Britain & France at a moment where these seemed weak. The massive loss of life experienced by them is averted, including the Armenian Genocide. The Arabs never revolt in the first place. The railway network may have been strengthened throughout, but is by no means complete.

Next, territory.

What I think is possible is that the rather loose control over Arabia is strengthened ITTL. The Ottoman vassals of the Emirate of Jabal Shammar have been fully incorporated at a minimum, with regular Ottoman army outposts dotted across the desert. Ryadh may well have been conquered by an Ottoman-Rashidi force ITTL from the Saudis whilst the British were to busy to care. What happens to Kuwait is uncertain, though Turkish influence would be much increased if there is now a rail line running all the way from Baghdad to Basra
Arabia_1914.png


To the north, the Caucasus is almost free real-estate. Azerbaijan was effortlessly taken from the Russians at the tail-end of the war anyway - IOTL, most of the rest of the Russian Caucasus is occupied once the large professional army Ottoman army, who has had 4 years to build up supplies near the border, marches in, and there's hardly anything apart from disorganized militias there to oppose them. Chechnya and Dagestan, with their Muslim majorities, are probably occupied as well (with the Ottomans even being viewed favorably by the locals), and depending on just how deep the Russian disorganization runs, parts of Circassia maybe as well. With the latter having been the site of a Russian genocide (https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Circassian_genocide) only a couple of decades prior, many Circassian refugees which had been welcomed into Ottoman lands may try to return there. Lastly, there is Crimea, which at the time was IIRC about a third Tatar/Muslim, a third Russian and a third others. Whether or not the Ottomans try to make an attempt to retake it, idk.

To the east, we have Iran, which at the time had a Russian sphere of influence verging on outright occupation in the north (and an equivalent British sphere in the south). With the collapse of Russia, the Ottomans may attempt to flex their muscles somewhat in this area (which logistically was not beyond their reach, given that they briefly managed to occupy Tabriz twice OTL during the war. Further east, there was Russian central Asia, which OTL saw significant Turkmen opposition to the Soviets, in which none other than Enver Pasha was involved. Once they seize Baku, I think it's a near certainty that the Ottomans will become involved in supporting these Muslim uprisings, meaning that by the mid 20s we might be getting some intense naval action in the Caspian, as the Russian state (whether White or Bolshevik) attempts to cut these efforts off.

Lastly, in the west, the Ottomans will stake their claim to Eastern Thrace bits of eastern Bulgaria at the peace conference where there were substantial Turkish populations, or maybe even a return to 1912 borders. Whilst the former are possibly granted by the Entente, the latter are probably rejected. Finally, there are the Dodecanese, which the Italians were nominally obliged to return according to the Treaty of Ouchy, a fact which the Balkan wars and then WW1 prevented. Here, they may run out of excuses, although Ottoman attempts to occupy them may very well lead to a war with Greece

View attachment 618766
Part I: My take... if the Ottoman Empire joins while Bulgaria is an active Central Powers participant... the bulk of the Ottoman Army is facing Bulgaria. Western Thrace and the Islamic part of nowadays Bulgarian Rhodopes are the primary target, though the Ottoman Empire may hope as much as Eastern Bulgaria. The latter is pretty likely not going to happen but that wouldn't stop Ottoman Officials having ambitions...

Then part II: The Ottoman Empire, the moment of the October Revolution and the Brest Litovsk Treaty moves into the Caucasus and establishes pro-Ottoman Republics, with the ambition to annex the Turkic/Muslim parts (Kars Oblast, Azerbaijan). Georgia is lucky as their independence is pretty much guaranteed, though without Adjara. Armenian Independence is not unless some Great Powers will demand that. It isn't really practical either with a large Armenian minority who would be even more arroused to join the New Armenia. It would also make the border with Azerbaijan shorter, endangering an annexation of it, as well as disregard the relatively large Muslim population in what is now Armenia. As time passes by, the Ottoman Empire annex the Turkic Republics in the Caucasus.
This moves us further to the Northern Caucasus. The Circassian lands are pretty depopulated of Muslims since 1864. But there are still Circassian generations who would like their own homes back. The Eastern part of the Northern Caucasus is still largely Muslim so that makes the establishment of a Muslim State more likely. The trouble here is: Russia.
It is relatively easy to subdue land from the Russians and occupy it. Especially if it has natural defenses like the Caucasus. But what happens when the Russian Civil War is over? Russia will get out of Civil War. With a bit of luck, Russia even experiences warlordism. But Russia will be united at some point and they will want their lands back. The Northern Caucasus is apart of some Rivers, lacking Natural defenses. If the Communists win and secure the Ukraine as well, this is a problem for the Northern Caucasus and Crimea... Whether Russia will actually go for war is up to our assumptions. But they won't easily recognize it.
The Crimea is another issue. The Muslim population is like 35-40% in this period. It is a minority. If the Crimea wants to survive as a Republic it pretty much needs Ottoman occupation and Tatar immigration from Anatolia + Russian/Ukrainian emigration to either Russia or Ukraine. Until the balance is reversed to 60% Tatar. Otherwise it is better off being annexed by the Ottoman Empire for survival. The existence of an independent Ukraine ideal. Especially if it covers the Kuban.
Central Asia... the Ottoman Empire won't annex this. That should be made certain first. It is ideal though. Establishing pro-Ottoman Turkic state(s) and sending troublesome pan-Turkic figures like Enver Pasha and Nuri Pasha to fight long war. Success here also depends on how long Russian instability lasts. If they can succeed in driving out the Russians and Communists from Kazakhstan, there will be a good chance these men will have to fight for the Uyghurs as well agains the Chinese. Even better as they likely won't return alive to the Ottoman Empire ever again. But then again, they will be seen as almost saints by Turkic Nationalists.
Part III: Arabia... Al Haasa was lost in 1913 to the Sauds. The Ottoman Empire not joining the war means early recovery of that. The Sauds will liky face a decisive deposition in favor of the Rashidis. If the Ottomans join the Great War the UK may give back Kuwait, Qatar, Cyprus and maybe... Bahrain. Depends on how willing the British are. But the first three a certain.
Part IV: Maybe the Dodecanese. It was important for the Ottomans and not so much for the Italians. If the Ottomans make this demand, the UK may promise a colony for Italy. Maybe Togo?

This also depends on how willing the Entente is. The British will probably be more likely to support Ottoman annexation of Azerbaijan as the oil industry there will also be included in being ran by British Companies. It is also desirable if the Communist look like winning, preventing a Communist takeover of oil. Italy may resist to give up the Dodecanese unless the replacement is better. France may desire the establishment of an Armenian State in former Russian Caucasus. Not a certainty though... the most important thing is abolishing the capitulations. If those are gone, the Ottoman Empire can industrialize rapidly.

Also:
1. The Ottoman Empire gainimg Western Thrace is a guaranteed war with Greece within a decade. It would be interesting if Benito led Italy would still happen and a Corfu incident happens
2. Disregard the inevitable genocide in the Empire. Anyone saying this thinks like everyone in 1914 Ottoman Empire was adoring racial policy of "Superior Turks are pure and is being corrupted by inferior Greeks and Armenians".
3. What is your PoD? 1913: Mahmud Pasha avoiding assassination? Or 1914: Dreadnoughts are delivered?
4. If 1: the trio has no power. Mahmud Pasha was a senior and willing to keep the Empire out of war, unlike a younger Enver. If 2: Enver and Talaat will likely be couped away, with Cemal Pasha being better off than those two.
 

Osman Aga

Banned
Yep, read it. Is there a problem?

The major difference between my thoughts and the OP's is not about there being a neutral Empire, more that I suspect the Empire wouldn't be that willing to 'gamble' with foreign adventures [for WWI was the ultimate gamble, and they lost]. It also takes into the fact that a lot of the leading Turks felt that the Empire needed strengthening, reforming, developing - not simply 'expansion'.
Yes.

You said:
" I simply don't see the Ottomans siding with the Entente - at least, not while Russia is part of that. Lot of old, bad blood there - if the Porte wanted anything back, it would be the territories lost to Petersberg in 1878."

The Ottoman Empire has no option to disregard an alliance even if Russia is a part of it. They weren't in 1913 as survival was a primary objective after the Balkan War. It also disregards Cemal Pasha looking for an Alliance with France as late as 1914. Which means your quote is based on nothing.
Also... OP cleary stated Russia crumbles and the Ottoman Empire joins like Romania in 1918 AFTER Russia crumbles as OTL. So taking advantage of the situation. So it is irrelevant whether Russia is a part of it anyway as the Ottoman Empire joins in 1918. If you had read that you would wouldn't write this.

The only thing I can agree is getting the lost Caucasus lands in 1878. But that's about it.
 
Yes, there were folks who wanted a tie-up with the Entente. However, I generally got the impression it was Russia's inclusion which was the real sticking-point.

Plus, my first statement doesn't preclude the Empire joining the Entente after the withdrawal of the Russians after the Bolshevik revolution. However, I don't think the Empire would have much to gain from going on the offensive against Bulgaria. Though it's quite possible that they could declare war, push a bit to make the Thracian border 'more defensible' and then simply dig in and let the Bulgarians to continue to primarily worry about the Entente armies pushing northwards out of Salonkia. Esp by mid 1918 that a civil war seemed to be brewing in Russia - which poses much cheaper pickings.

Reading your ideas, it's quite clear you've got a much higher belief in the strength of the Ottoman state at this point than I do. Personally, I think the Ottoman ruling class will have the memories of the Italian and Balkan wars at the forefront of their minds; not wanting to over-extend themselves or ending up ruling any more minorities than they already do. Even if they did [for example] manage to cleave off the Crimea and make a satellite state, it would take them into direct confrontation with the new 'Red Russia' [obvious by 1920]. Would Constantinople really want that? Is the Crimea even worth the trouble? The Caucasus is a more solid bet; three new 'national republics' taking advantage of the Bolshevik's own 'self-determination for all peoples' to go it alone, with Turkish 'friendship' preserving them as buffer states.
 
Top