Nearly all discussion of German aircraft carriers on this board seems to about the Kreigsmarine. Is there any possibility that the post war West German Navy could have had a carrier arm or amphibious landing ships? Most likely something like the Dutch Navy had with the Karel Doorman with a focus to ASW ops in the North Sea/North Atlantic or later an Invincible class “Harrier Carrier?”
Post 1945 German Aircraft Carriers/Amphibs?
- Thread starter The Oncoming Storm
- Start date
Considering the importance they had in the Baltic, why would you see them investing in such blue water capabilities? What isn’t getting built instead?
RamscoopRaider
Donor
The BRD is both a frontline state, aka if the Cold War goes hot fighting will occur on their borders no matter how good or bad things go, that lacks overseas interests
The BRD needs a huge Army to try and hold some of their country intact, which they had, and a big air force to protect and support it, which they had. Navally they only really need subs and missile boats to reduce the possibility of being outflanked by an amphibious thrust, which again they had.
While having blue water ASW to help the US REFORGER convoys get through is something they would like, any money spent on that is basically money spent increasing the probable quantity of day 15 or so reinforcements, that could be spent on ground forces that would be present from day 1, so money spent there is suboptimal
Germany also lacks overseas interests, the French, British and Dutch have colonies they still control and overseas interests that Germany lost in WWI, they have a need for a blue water navy to intervene to protect those interests in situations other than WWIII, Germany has no such interests
The BRD needs a huge Army to try and hold some of their country intact, which they had, and a big air force to protect and support it, which they had. Navally they only really need subs and missile boats to reduce the possibility of being outflanked by an amphibious thrust, which again they had.
While having blue water ASW to help the US REFORGER convoys get through is something they would like, any money spent on that is basically money spent increasing the probable quantity of day 15 or so reinforcements, that could be spent on ground forces that would be present from day 1, so money spent there is suboptimal
Germany also lacks overseas interests, the French, British and Dutch have colonies they still control and overseas interests that Germany lost in WWI, they have a need for a blue water navy to intervene to protect those interests in situations other than WWIII, Germany has no such interests
Surely unless they invest in the increased number of high end escorts (both AAW and ASW) to protect it within such a confined zone, it's just a sitting duck for any Soviet attack? I mean just a quick look and the Federal navy had what 3 AAW destroyers and 6 ASW Frigates for much of the Cold War, how many more would they need to protect any sizable Amphib capability?
Aye and that screaming you hear is the Soviets raising all kinds of diplomatic hell about "The capitalist vessel is a blantant and aggressive design and such a ship is clearly a threat to the peaceful Soviets states and a threat to Poland. Oh and by the waaaaaay Norway and Sweden, how safe do you feel about the NAZIS...err....Germans having that capacity again...just saying
Lots of Love USSR."
RamscoopRaider
Donor
That would only be worth it if they could guarantee air superiority and naval supremacy first, otherwise its just a waste of resources. Even then the benefits are fairly marginal, spend a lot of money on warships and amphibious capability to maybe tie down a few extra WarPac divisions on coastal defense duty, and probably class C or D divisions, when they could have spent that money on a few more divisions of their own, or at the very least upgrading the equipment of existing ones if manpower is the limiting factor
Why?
What is the mission the West German government sees as important enough to significantly expand the navy budget and capability? In OTL, the West German Navy was expected to significantly contest the Baltic and assert control of the North Sea littoral including sea control into the approaches of the ports of Wilhemshaven, Bremen, and Hamburg for follow-on US/UK reinforcements as well as supplies.
A carrier can't disappear into the deep darkness of the immense ocean in the Baltic. The sea is too damn small for that. And if airpower is needed, then that is the purpose of the Luftwaffe where the same or better aircraft can be operated from cheaper bases made out of concrete. The only potential advantage is that air cover to a surface group might occasionally be 10-15 minutes out instead of 45 minutes out. And I say occasionally for anything that is not a US fleet carrier won't have enough aircraft to maintain a 24x7 CAP and on deck strike package for long.
If there is a need for ASW patrols in the Baltic, then frigate based helicopters and land based multi-engine maritime patrol planes do that job pretty well and likely cheaper and more flexible once missiles start flying and high value targets start sinking. Maybe there is an argument that the Germans might want large Sea King sized helicopters on their major ASW combatants like the Canadians but a limited carrier in the Baltic is just a target and a resource sink.
Now in the North Sea, what does a carrier do differently and/or significantly better than land based assets to control the littoral? It might be more survivable as it is much deeper into the NATO air defense system but that is a function of other assets and not its own capability?
What is the mission that the Germans need a carrier? Cover reinforcements to Norway? ASW support groups for convoys fighting the third Battle of the Atlantic with the Germans this time going sub hunting? Maybe? But is a carrier and its cost worth not funding a panzer grenedier division? Probably not for the Germans.
With the US “imperialists” firmly on the ground in Europe any kind of resurgent German nationalism does not stand a chance
Plus to ally the fears of its Allies Maybe Norwegian and danish navies can provide the ASW and AAW escorts for these ships
It would be interesting if USN invested in vessels specialized for use in Baltic
Kind of how RN did during Crimean war
RamscoopRaider
Donor
The difference with Crimea was that the British and French were so dominant over the Russians navally that they had no worries on the high seas, and were not excessively concerned about the Danubian or Caucasian theaters due to logistical and diplomatic realities. The US is sufficiently worried that the USSR might be able to interdict movement on the high seas enough to impact the Central European Theater that they can't afford to build ships for a single role like that without cutting into blue water escorts or forces for the primary theater
Fuzzy Dunlop
Banned
Would love to see this.
A couple of Centaur/Colossus class carriers in service with the Germany Navy.
The Bundesmarine acquired 6 LSM's from the US Navy in 1958.
Here's the German wiki (it's one of the rare cases where the english wiki has less info than another language):
de.wikipedia.org
Reason I knew about it, is because Revell has a model kit of it, originally of the US WW2 version, but they also released a German version. The German verion includes a helicopter platform and a helicopter.
www.1001hobbies.co.uk
My Google search mostly pointed to pages about the model. But here is an english source:
Second one has a pic of one with what seems to be a helicopter platform, so apparantly the Revell model is correct.
Here's the German wiki (it's one of the rare cases where the english wiki has less info than another language):
LSM-1/LSM(R)-Klasse – Wikipedia
Reason I knew about it, is because Revell has a model kit of it, originally of the US WW2 version, but they also released a German version. The German verion includes a helicopter platform and a helicopter.
1:144 model kits - all the model kits at 1001hobbies.com
1001hobbies.com offers a wide selection of 1:144 scale model kits. Also consider ordering the related supplies: paints, varnishes, paint brushes, etc..
www.1001hobbies.co.uk
My Google search mostly pointed to pages about the model. But here is an english source:
Second one has a pic of one with what seems to be a helicopter platform, so apparantly the Revell model is correct.
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German aquiring any major amphibious or expeditionary capability during cold war would spark outrage within NATO. The germans were there to sit still, shut up and take the brunt of a soviet attack. That was what they were allowed to do.
To illustrate. German troops were not allowed to conduct any exercises in norway until the 80s and when they were allowed to do so it sparked a LOT of anger. Also conducting major fleet operations involving capitol ships for nato in the baltics would have been suicide. Way too close to soviet air bases.
To illustrate. German troops were not allowed to conduct any exercises in norway until the 80s and when they were allowed to do so it sparked a LOT of anger. Also conducting major fleet operations involving capitol ships for nato in the baltics would have been suicide. Way too close to soviet air bases.
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Riain
Banned
IIRC everyone was a bit skeezy with the idea that a West German counter-offensive operation in ww3 might cross the inner German border to complete a flanking maneuvre. The idea that they could conduct an amphibious assault into East Germany,,Poland or horror of horrors the Russian Oblast would cause everyone to have kittens.
Even if the ship is German but Carried marines from a multinational European force ? ( don’t say it brings back memories of SS volunteers from Nordic countries)
What if it’s named after a non communist victim of nazis ?
I’m trying REALLY hard to fit this in any scenario ( can’t you tell)
But very valid points about sub and air threat as mentioned above even without the threat of AshM
Realistically the closest we can have is a large submarine depot ship or mother ship for FAC / patrol boats
Well, there you go. West Germany did have landing ships. I think they could scale up a ship to where it can carry several helicopters. Perhaps as targeting and ASW support for light forces. Or build a helicopter-heavy ASW frigate for service with NATO's multinational task forces. Something like Japan's big helo destroyers from the late Cold War period. Would they want to is a different question.The Bundesmarine acquired 6 LSM's from the US Navy in 1958.
Here's the German wiki (it's one of the rare cases where the english wiki has less info than another language):
LSM-1/LSM(R)-Klasse – Wikipedia
Reason I knew about it, is because Revell has a model kit of it, originally of the US WW2 version, but they also released a German version. The German verion includes a helicopter platform and a helicopter.
1:144 model kits - all the model kits at 1001hobbies.com
1001hobbies.com offers a wide selection of 1:144 scale model kits. Also consider ordering the related supplies: paints, varnishes, paint brushes, etc..
My Google search mostly pointed to pages about the model. But here is an english source:
Second one has a pic of one with what seems to be a helicopter platform, so apparantly the Revell model is correct.
That should be possible. OTL they fitted one ship with a helicopter platform, only covering a part of the ship. It shouldn't be too hard to extend the platform. The US added a platform along several of their LSM's to install rocketlaunchers. It might mean they've got less loading capacity, but since the ships were originally made for the Pacific war, they had a long range (I think 5,000 miles). So they could load them with less fuel to compensate for that.
Hi Monk,
U mentioned a multinational force carried by the amphibs, where in NATOs orbat are you pulling them from, Norway, Denmark Belgium the UK? Because those nato countries that could contribute marine forces were already allocated to much more important reinforcement operations in the northern flank.
I just can't see a sensible reason to have a German carrier group in the baltic or an amphibious force for that matter, it hands every advantage to the WP and would take a lot of NATOs high end aaw/asw forces to protect it.
I agree about the carrier group, but they did have an amphibious force OTL:
Amphibische Gruppe – Wikipedia
It's in German though.
A translation of their goal: "To participate in the Allied defense of the German Baltic coast and the Danish islands and to help prevent enemy naval forces from breaking through from the Baltic Sea into the North Sea. The Amphibious Group's transshipment forces served to secure supplies for Allied forces in Germany and to keep the German population supplied even if the ports failed. In addition, during the buildup of the navy beginning in 1956, there were considerations of relieving its own land front by an Allied landing in the rear of the enemy. Such a landing was to be supported by its own amphibious forces. However, the capability for independent combat landings was not envisaged."