Portuguese Philippines: Was it Possible?

[MarshalBraginsky]

The original Treaty of Torsedillas had demarcated the Spanish and Portuguese spheres of influence with Asia being in the Portuguese sphere of influence, but Spain had acquired the Philippines. Was it possible that Portugal had gotten the Philippine Islands, and what would the cultural results of such a thing? How big would a "Portuguese East Indies" get?

 

[ramones1986]

It's possible if the Portuguese were quick enough. And if it's possible, expect the Kristang to settle in Manila and spread their tongue as trade language

 

[kasumigenx]

If the Portuguese get the Philippines, it is likely that both Mindanao and Luzon would get Christianized since the Portuguese prefer vassalage to annexation which was the reason why Mindanaoans were against the Spanish and Luzon would remain under the rule of the Cadet Bolkiahs who ruled as vassals in Luzon of the Bolkiahs but now under Portuguese Vassalage, in that way Luzon's dominant language would remain as Kapampangan and the Portuguese will support the rulers loyal to the Portuguese in those lands.

 

[MarshalBraginsky]

If the Portuguese get the Philippines, it is likely that both Mindanao and Luzon would get Christianized since the Portuguese prefer vassalage to annexation which was the reason why Mindanaoans were against the Spanish and Luzon would remain under the rule of the Cadet Bolkiahs who ruled as vassals in Luzon of the Bolkiahs but now under Portuguese Vassalage, in that way Luzon's dominant language would remain as Kapampangan and the Portuguese will support the rulers loyal to the Portuguese in those lands.

Though would the Portuguese language be the lingua franca of the Portuguese East Indies? I'm sure that Visayas might be in the cards as well, but what would Portugal give up in return for acquiring the Philippines from Spain?

Another thing with regards to Portuguese Philippines is that what is the cultural consequences of a Lusophone "Philippine" state? Would they be like Brazil or Angola in terms of cultural makeup? Though I could also assume that Portuguese Philippines might be a lot more stable, if it consists of three (or four) autonomous kingdoms that are Christian.

Kapampangan might not be the only dominant language in Luzon though; there's also Ilocano, though Tagalog might end up being confined to southern Luzon while Ilocano could end up being the regional language of northern Luzon.

 

[katchen]

If the Portuguese got the Philippines, there's a good chance that they would get Taiwan and the Ryukyu Islands as well --at least until Hideyoshi got frightened of Portugal getting that close to Japan. Or the Southern Ming moved on Taiwan, Ryukyus and the Philippines
. Portugal would likely in that case also be able to hold the Moluccas against the Dutch. And if the Dutch cut Portuguese Philippines off from Portugal at the Sunda and Malacca straits, the Portuguese would likely work a go around south of Australia which could lead to Portuguese colonization of Australia in the 17th Century. We could see an Australia settled by Lusonians and Visayanese in the North--and a common culture and nation all the way to Sulawesi, Moluccas and eastern Lesser Sundas with European Portuguese more prevalent in South and Southeast and Southwest Australia.
A lot of mixed marriages between Portuguese and Asians in these large lands just as there was (is) with Africans in Brazil.
As for what Portugal might give Spain to get all this, perhaps the Mouth of the Amazon and no Portuguese settlement south of Rio.
And the way all this could happen is that Magellan's expedition is simply destroyed at sea, which was the most likely outcome of his attempt to cross the Pacific. Sir Francis Drake becomes the first Captain to circumnavigate the Earth and that does not help the Spanish at all in crossing the Pacific. In fact it means no Pacific Spanish crossing at all until Mendana and Quiros and Torres in 1598 by which time the Portuguese have their fait accompli---and need it, with the VOC breathing down their necks.

 

[kasumigenx]

We could see an Australia settled by Lusonians and Visayanese in the North--and a common culture and nation all the way to Sulawesi, Moluccas and eastern Lesser Sundas with European Portuguese more prevalent in South and Southeast and Southwest Australia.
A lot of mixed marriages between Portuguese and Asians in these large lands just as there was (is) with Africans in Brazil.

Actually, it will be only Visayans who will be sent to Australia, the people of Luzon don't really like moving..it was the Visayans who were sent to Mindanao.

Though would the Portuguese language be the lingua franca of the Portuguese East Indies? I'm sure that Visayas might be in the cards as well, but what would Portugal give up in return for acquiring the Philippines from Spain?

Another thing with regards to Portuguese Philippines is that what is the cultural consequences of a Lusophone "Philippine" state? Would they be like Brazil or Angola in terms of cultural makeup? Though I could also assume that Portuguese Philippines might be a lot more stable, if it consists of three (or four) autonomous kingdoms that are Christian.

Kapampangan might not be the only dominant language in Luzon though; there's also Ilocano, though Tagalog might end up being confined to southern Luzon while Ilocano could end up being the regional language of northern Luzon.

Ilocano and Tagalog were not dominant languages in Luzon, they were minor languages before the Spanish came and they took advantage of the genocide that happened in the Spanish times, had Kapampangan remained its dominance, the languages similar to it like Ibanag of Cagayan Valley and Sambal of Zambales will flourish but they will be subject to Kapampangan influence and most likely Tagalog and Ilocano would be the ones endangered at this point.

 

[Malta]

There are a few possible avenues.

Perhaps if Spanish conquest of Mexico is delayed primarily as it was the main impetus of Spanish Conquest of the area to export New World goods (SILVER) to the Ming.

 

[MarshalBraginsky]

Actually, it will be only Visayans who will be sent to Australia, the people of Luzon don't really like moving..it was the Visayans who were sent to Mindanao.



Ilocano and Tagalog were not dominant languages in Luzon, they were minor languages before the Spanish came and they took advantage of the genocide that happened in the Spanish times, had Kapampangan remained its dominance, the languages similar to it like Ibanag of Cagayan Valley and Sambal of Zambales will flourish but they will be subject to Kapampangan influence and most likely Tagalog and Ilocano would be the ones endangered at this point.

So basically a Kapampangan-dominated Luzon might be in the works? At least the Tagalista hubbub would be butterflied away.

There are a few possible avenues.

Perhaps if Spanish conquest of Mexico is delayed primarily as it was the main impetus of Spanish Conquest of the area to export New World goods (SILVER) to the Ming.

But how could the Spanish actually delay their conquest of Mexico when they've controlled the rest of Latin America?

If the Portuguese got the Philippines, there's a good chance that they would get Taiwan and the Ryukyu Islands as well --at least until Hideyoshi got frightened of Portugal getting that close to Japan. Or the Southern Ming moved on Taiwan, Ryukyus and the Philippines
. Portugal would likely in that case also be able to hold the Moluccas against the Dutch. And if the Dutch cut Portuguese Philippines off from Portugal at the Sunda and Malacca straits, the Portuguese would likely work a go around south of Australia which could lead to Portuguese colonization of Australia in the 17th Century. We could see an Australia settled by Lusonians and Visayanese in the North--and a common culture and nation all the way to Sulawesi, Moluccas and eastern Lesser Sundas with European Portuguese more prevalent in South and Southeast and Southwest Australia.
A lot of mixed marriages between Portuguese and Asians in these large lands just as there was (is) with Africans in Brazil.
As for what Portugal might give Spain to get all this, perhaps the Mouth of the Amazon and no Portuguese settlement south of Rio.
And the way all this could happen is that Magellan's expedition is simply destroyed at sea, which was the most likely outcome of his attempt to cross the Pacific. Sir Francis Drake becomes the first Captain to circumnavigate the Earth and that does not help the Spanish at all in crossing the Pacific. In fact it means no Pacific Spanish crossing at all until Mendana and Quiros and Torres in 1598 by which time the Portuguese have their fait accompli---and need it, with the VOC breathing down their necks.

What is the VOC stands for?

So basically we're talking about a huge Portugal-wank in the Asia-Pacific region here. I gotta make a map about this, just to see if it's correct.

 

[Codae]

What is the VOC stands for?

United East-Indian Company. Agent of Dutch imperialism.

 

[Blackfox5]

What is the VOC stands for?

It's the Dutch East India Company. VOC stands for Vereenigde Oost-Indische Compagnie, or United East India Company.

 

[Malta]

So basically a Kapampangan-dominated Luzon might be in the works? At least the Tagalista hubbub would be butterflied away.



But how could the Spanish actually delay their conquest of Mexico when they've controlled the rest of Latin America?



.

They had a few outposts in Panama but otherwise not so much.

 

[kasumigenx]

So basically a Kapampangan-dominated Luzon might be in the works? At least the Tagalista hubbub would be butterflied away.

The Term Tagalog was not really even an ethnic term at that time(even during the time of Bonifacio who named his country Katagalugan)...Luzonians might be called Tagalogs ITTL because one of the Demonyms of the Kingdom of Tondo is Tagalog, the people we now called the Tagalogs are the Kumintang in a Surviving Tondo TL.

The Question is if the Luzonians would still try to impose their culture ITTL..

 

[MarshalBraginsky]

They had a few outposts in Panama but otherwise not so much.

I would have thought that Spain would be in the Mexican hinterland.

It's the Dutch East India Company. VOC stands for Vereenigde Oost-Indische Compagnie, or United East India Company.

And the Portuguese colonization was state sponsored?

 

[MarshalBraginsky]

Though if Ilocano and Tagalog are languages, then how is ethnicity defined in OTL Philippines?

If Portugal does get the Philippines, I suspect that they might divvy up the colonies into several administrative units like Luzon, Visayas, Mindanao, Sabah, possibly Malacca, and so on.

Below is what I've pictured of a Portuguese East Indies that might turn out, though didn't Portugal also tried to take the Malay Peninsula as well?

 

[kasumigenx]

Though if Ilocano and Tagalog are languages, then how is ethnicity defined in OTL Philippines?

If Portugal does get the Philippines, I suspect that they might divvy up the colonies into several administrative units like Luzon, Visayas, Mindanao, Sabah, possibly Malacca, and so on.

Below is what I've pictured of a Portuguese East Indies that might turn out, though didn't Portugal also tried to take the Malay Peninsula as well?

In this TL Tagalog will be called as Kumintang, Ilokano will be called as Samtoy, and both will be endangered languages in the country dominated by Kapampangan speakers.

Aside from that Luzon would remain under the rule of the Bruneian dynasty that Bolkiah brought to Luzon since the Portuguese like vassalization rather than annexation.

 

[MarshalBraginsky]

So in other words, they might remain Muslim? The Bolkiahs were an Islamic dynasty after all, and there were some non-Muslims in Luzon that would love to fight their Bolkiah overlords.

 

[kasumigenx]

So in other words, they might remain Muslim? The Bolkiahs were an Islamic dynasty after all, and there were some non-Muslims in Luzon that would love to fight their Bolkiah overlords.

Bolkiahs in the Philippines will convert to Christianity like they did in OTL but will rule Luzon as Portuguese Vassals...in OTL lineages such as Binay and Macapagal are both Bolkiah cadet lineages descended from one branch of Bolkiahs.

Bolkiahs replaced the House of Tondo IOTL after Gambang was defeated..

The Bolkiah Dynasts in the Luzon also have a bad reputation of corruption but their corruption will stay in Luzon, although they will be loyal to the Portuguese..

 

[MarshalBraginsky]

Bolkiahs in the Philippines will convert to Christianity like they did in OTL but will rule Luzon as Portuguese Vassals...in OTL lineages such as Binay and Macapagal are both Bolkiah cadet lineages descended from one branch of Bolkiahs.

Bolkiahs replaced the House of Tondo IOTL after Gambang was defeated..

The Bolkiah Dynasts in the Luzon also have a bad reputation of corruption but their corruption will stay in Luzon, although they will be loyal to the Portuguese..

I thought that the Bolkiahs were Muslim, though if they did convert to Christianity, chances are that their Bruneian counterparts will denounce them as apostates. However, how would Mindanao end up Christian as well?

 

[kasumigenx]

I thought that the Bolkiahs were Muslim, though if they did convert to Christianity, chances are that their Bruneian counterparts will denounce them as apostates. However, how would Mindanao end up Christian as well?

Yeah...they will but later on they will reconcile like what they did in OTL since the only real religion of majority of them is money and being power hungry...

 

[MarshalBraginsky]

OK, so would the Portuguese create three administrative divisions in their Philippine colony, or would it be a network of vassalized kingdoms?