Plausibility Check-Llamas introduced to Mesoamerica

[Silver01]

That is a plausible journey in my opinion, given that one Pre Colombian Native American South American Ecuadorian raft was demonstrated to be capable to sail to Costa Rica, while other Pre Colombian Native American South American rafts have been sailed by various archeologists to places such as Polynesia and even Australia, with the most famous expedition being that of the Kon Tiki by Thor Heyerdahl.

this is pretty much confirmed that trade did exist and no one doubts that the sporadic trade existed also unlike say polynesia the ecuatorians could stop before reaching
mexico again the distance would be made shorter now if we truly wank the aztec to vassalize Cuzcatlán which i dont know if they could and the inca expand to the some where in the rich gold choco region of colombia then the distance falls even more to 1500 km

even then otl likely voyages did not take long this from colima to ecuador which is about 3500km

but as seen there is something intresting here it takes in the best case scenario little more than a month and half to get from ecuador to mexico but it takes in best case 3 months to same from mexico to ecuador this from what i read north of Tehantepec to go south the winds are not that favorable.

assuming otl distance llamas would in the best case scenarios have to survive 1 and half month at sea to reach colima

 

[someone45356]

I know the original post more so or less is suggesting it be the pod to be more prehistoric in nature, but at the same time I see a lot of posts mention Aztecs and Inca when these were not necessarily even existing 2500 years ago, much less the mayans which really is only a concept as these are a group of not all that united separate city states that were never really unified save for when they all became a part of spain.

And that’s really what left me thinking, if this sort of goal could’ve actually been more easily feasible though definitely still not very trivial had The introduction to mesoamerica happened while it was New spain and not the bunch of disparate kingdoms? Unlike the latter which features a lot More reasons why this sort of thing Didn’t happen, it’s actually a lot more documented the trade routes between Spain, New Spain, and Peru as the viceroyalty. Since all these places are both allied and under the same jurisdiction with an already common route going from callao to guayaquil, panama, habana, and then veracruz. I wonder how possible it would be to bring over llamas overtime to New spain via this way. Especially as well the fact that during this time period the seafaring technology wouldve been a lot more advanced with spanish tech at the helm of it.

Of course the tropical climate issues are still very much persistent, and I do think it perhaps played a part in a number of things that could not be delivered from Peru over to new spain. But yet IOTL a loooot of things did go through and thats why hispanoamerica and spain still share a lot of the similar cultural traits to this day. Perhaps, like others have mentioned but through this context, that some displaced population could have proposed some number of llamas to get over to new spain, as an example a wealthy cacique from the andes finding a business opportunity in bringing the usefulness of llamas to some specific part of New spain where these can live.

 

[twovultures]

this is pretty much confirmed that trade did exist and no one doubts that the sporadic trade existed also unlike say polynesia the ecuatorians could stop before reaching
mexico again the distance would be made shorter now if we truly wank the aztec to vassalize Cuzcatlán which i dont know if they could and the inca expand to the some where in the rich gold choco region of colombia then the distance falls even more to 1500 km

even then otl likely voyages did not take long this from colima to ecuador which is about 3500km View attachment 897494

View attachment 897495

but as seen there is something intresting here it takes in the best case scenario little more than a month and half to get from ecuador to mexico but it takes in best case 3 months to same from mexico to ecuador this from what i read north of Tehantepec to go south the winds are not that favorable.

assuming otl distance llamas would in the best case scenarios have to survive 1 and half month at sea to reach colima

Looking at the case in the '80's where a group of llamas were stranded outside of Aruba (the link is in my OP), it is possible to stabilize their numbers for over a month in a tropical climate as long as they are not being made to work as pack animals or otherwise exerted beyond reaching food and shade. However, in that example, a little over half died, so you would need to be transporting a herd large enough to take those losses and leave a viable population.

As per our earlier discussion, improved shipbuilding could see faster ships making the journey, and more ships could lead to the improvement of better navigation that allow a faster trip/direct jump from Peru to Mexico (though I admit, I don't know too much about maritime history so I don't know exactly what changes would need to happen for this beyond "more choppy tools=more wood for ships=more ships").

I know the original post more so or less is suggesting it be the pod to be more prehistoric in nature, but at the same time I see a lot of posts mention Aztecs and Inca when these were not necessarily even existing 2500 years ago, much less the mayans which really is only a concept as these are a group of not all that united separate city states that were never really unified save for when they all became a part of spain.

And that’s really what left me thinking, if this sort of goal could’ve actually been more easily feasible though definitely still not very trivial had The introduction to mesoamerica happened while it was New spain and not the bunch of disparate kingdoms? Unlike the latter which features a lot More reasons why this sort of thing Didn’t happen, it’s actually a lot more documented the trade routes between Spain, New Spain, and Peru as the viceroyalty. Since all these places are both allied and under the same jurisdiction with an already common route going from callao to guayaquil, panama, habana, and then veracruz. I wonder how possible it would be to bring over llamas overtime to New spain via this way. Especially as well the fact that during this time period the seafaring technology wouldve been a lot more advanced with spanish tech at the helm of it.
View attachment 897521
Of course the tropical climate issues are still very much persistent, and I do think it perhaps played a part in a number of things that could not be delivered from Peru over to new spain. But yet IOTL a loooot of things did go through and thats why hispanoamerica and spain still share a lot of the similar cultural traits to this day. Perhaps, like others have mentioned but through this context, that some displaced population could have proposed some number of llamas to get over to new spain, as an example a wealthy cacique from the andes finding a business opportunity in bringing the usefulness of llamas to some specific part of New spain where these can live.

It's an interesting idea, and I think it is possible. The hurdle is that most of the Spanish were interested in extracting wealth to Spain, not to Mexico, and were more interested in looting than long-term investment-for example, IOTL they slaughtered llamas in their thousands to make room for cattle (more valuable to the Spanish economy) and to extract bezoars to sell to Europe.

 

[Silver01]

, it is possible to stabilize their numbers for over a month in a tropical climate

Well the trip is from Ecuador to colima sierra madre sur extends as south as the southern edges as of the otl Aztec empire so it would be less than 45 days if there dropping them there

 

[someone45356]

It's an interesting idea, and I think it is possible. The hurdle is that most of the Spanish were interested in extracting wealth to Spain, not to Mexico, and were more interested in looting than long-term investment-for example, IOTL they slaughtered llamas in their thousands to make room for cattle (more valuable to the Spanish economy) and to extract bezoars to sell to Europe.

the only real time the spanish were actively promoting the extraction of wealth was during the bourbon period, meanwhile because under the hapsburgs given that it was following the ways a composite monarchy functioned, a lot of the land was still very much lead by local curacas and obviously the viceroy as well as other important figures like the alferez real de los inca who could act in the name of the crown in need be.

If any spanish massacred llamas, it’s probably very likely to have been the natives themselves who were very much spanish citizens as part of the “kingdoms of peru”. It’s a misconception to think everything with spanish at this time and especially related to the viceroyalties themselves meant that it was a peninsular straight from cadiz or sevilla. For example that people believe the majority of the royalist force in the independence wars in peru were all spaniards, when in reality 90% of the troops were of peruvian origin, just that they called themselves spanish…. Because they were.

I think realistically for llamas to get to new spain mesoamerica , it wouldve have had to have been an entire operation which is why I suggested a cacique. But another interesting quirk of the spanish empire is that anyone no matter who could send letters to the crown and ask for changes or complaints and if they were important enough, there would ge decrees put up about this sort of thing. Maybe somebody asking for funding from the crown for such a project could get it rolling if by any chance a monarch would agree to the idea, as silly as it may be unlike now where if you tweet at some politician they would not reply to you, the monarchs would often actually reply to those who sent letters.

 

[chornedsnorkack]

That's a temperate rainforest, so not quite comparable heatwise-though the fact that llamas are running feral in that region does show that they are adaptable to habitats outside of their Andean homeland, and can tolerate humid climates when the temperatures are low enough.

There is a plenty of temperate rainforest in Andes! Chile.
How do wild guanacos range in wet Chile? How did domesticated llamas of the Mapuche?

 

[mrmandias]

I know the original post more so or less is suggesting it be the pod to be more prehistoric in nature, but at the same time I see a lot of posts mention Aztecs and Inca when these were not necessarily even existing 2500 years ago, much less the mayans which really is only a concept as these are a group of not all that united separate city states that were never really unified save for when they all became a part of spain.

And that’s really what left me thinking, if this sort of goal could’ve actually been more easily feasible though definitely still not very trivial had The introduction to mesoamerica happened while it was New spain and not the bunch of disparate kingdoms? Unlike the latter which features a lot More reasons why this sort of thing Didn’t happen, it’s actually a lot more documented the trade routes between Spain, New Spain, and Peru as the viceroyalty. Since all these places are both allied and under the same jurisdiction with an already common route going from callao to guayaquil, panama, habana, and then veracruz. I wonder how possible it would be to bring over llamas overtime to New spain via this way. Especially as well the fact that during this time period the seafaring technology wouldve been a lot more advanced with spanish tech at the helm of it.
View attachment 897521
Of course the tropical climate issues are still very much persistent, and I do think it perhaps played a part in a number of things that could not be delivered from Peru over to new spain. But yet IOTL a loooot of things did go through and thats why hispanoamerica and spain still share a lot of the similar cultural traits to this day. Perhaps, like others have mentioned but through this context, that some displaced population could have proposed some number of llamas to get over to new spain, as an example a wealthy cacique from the andes finding a business opportunity in bringing the usefulness of llamas to some specific part of New spain where these can live.

to introduce llamas into mexico during the colonial period and then have them become widespread as a domestic, you need them to do something as a domestic animal that cattle and sheep don't. What's the thing llamas offer that is obviously superior in the eyes of the Mexican Spanish?

 

[HyperMuscularDemon]

How about the textile industry? Given that llamas produce llama fleece, it could be possible for a thriving textile industry to flourish in pre colonial Mesoamerica. Native weavers and textile producers could get very rich, and textiles produced from llama fleece could decode very valuable, even traded to the Andes, where the llama originated.

 

[Arkenfolm]

this is pretty much confirmed that trade did exist and no one doubts that the sporadic trade existed also unlike say polynesia the ecuatorians could stop before reaching
mexico again the distance would be made shorter now if we truly wank the aztec to vassalize Cuzcatlán which i dont know if they could and the inca expand to the some where in the rich gold choco region of colombia then the distance falls even more to 1500 km

even then otl likely voyages did not take long this from colima to ecuador which is about 3500km View attachment 897494

View attachment 897495

but as seen there is something intresting here it takes in the best case scenario little more than a month and half to get from ecuador to mexico but it takes in best case 3 months to same from mexico to ecuador this from what i read north of Tehantepec to go south the winds are not that favorable.

assuming otl distance llamas would in the best case scenarios have to survive 1 and half month at sea to reach colima

What is the source of this image, by any chance? I'd love to read this for myself.

 

[Silver01]

What is the source of this image, by any chance? I'd love to read this for myself.

Sure Prehistoric trade between Ecuador and West Mexico: A computer simulation of coastal voyages