Plausibility Check: Industrial Revolution Begins in Tang Dynasty China?

[sarsenapati]

Inspired by this image shown to me by a Chinese friend I began to wonder about this possibility. The Chinese could have figured out how to use steam for motive power (perhaps they already had?).

After the An Lushan rebellion which killed off so many Chinese people, there would most likely have been a shortage of workers in many places. This also tracks with the theory that some historians of the OTL industrial revolution propose that rising wages in England made using human muscle-power for manufacturing prohibitively expensive.

One potential scenario: A hobbyist engineer who previously owned a traditional artisanal manufacturing workshop figures out how to restart his business, dormant due to lack of labourers, using a rudimentary steam engine. I'm envisioning some kind of trip hammer based manufacturing, since the foot-powered trip hammer was already in use in China . Alternatively, a textile mill dormant due to lack of labour is restarted using a water-powered spinning mill, mirroring the progression of innovations seen in OTL England.

So - thoughts?

 

[dandan_noodles]

My smoothbrain understanding is that you need to understand the concept of atmospheric pressure to make a steam engine that really works; the work isn't done by the steam, it's by the vacuum created when cool water gets squirted into the steam filled cylinder, cooling the air and shrinking its volume, so the air outside rapidly pushes it in the direction you want.

which is a long way of saying there's a lot of intellectual/philosophical groundwork that needs to be laid before good steam engines are feasible.

 

[sarsenapati]

My smoothbrain understanding is that you need to understand the concept of atmospheric pressure to make a steam engine that really works; the work isn't done by the steam, it's by the vacuum created when cool water gets squirted into the steam filled cylinder, cooling the air and shrinking its volume, so the air outside rapidly pushes it in the direction you want.

which is a long way of saying there's a lot of intellectual/philosophical groundwork that needs to be laid before good steam engines are feasible.

I see, I do see your point. Looks like our hypothetical hobbyist engineer would either need to draw on an existing scientific tradition or dabble in it himself...

 

[sarsenapati]

Also, I just now realized the labels on the image seem to be in Korean, but I was told this system was in use in China as well during the time period being discussed.

 

[Miyako]

A hobbyist engineer who previously owned a traditional artisanal manufacturing workshop figures out how to restart his business, dormant due to lack of labourers, using a rudimentary steam engine. I'm envisioning some kind of trip hammer based manufacturing, since the foot-powered trip hammer was already in use in China . Alternatively, a textile mill dormant due to lack of labour is restarted using a water-powered spinning mill, mirroring the progression of innovations seen in OTL England.

Well, someone influenced by knowledge of mechanical principles from ancient Chinese texts such as the "Nine Chapters on the Mathematical Art" or the "The Artificer's Record," could have taken up the challenge LOL
But, in my personal opinion, the possibility of industrialization was far greater in Southern Song, they already had a pseudo-industrial revolution going on and if not for the arrival of Mongols........😞

 

[sarsenapati]

Well, someone influenced by knowledge of mechanical principles from ancient Chinese texts such as the "Nine Chapters on the Mathematical Art" or the "The Artificer's Record," could have taken up the challenge LOL
But, in my personal opinion, the possibility of industrialization was far greater in Southern Song, they already had a pseudo-industrial revolution going on and if not for the arrival of Mongols........😞

You know you are the second person to tell me that it was only likely under the Song dynasty

I was just thinking along the lines of -> An Lushan leads to great number of deaths -> Shortage of workers -> Impetus for some kind of mechanization

 

[Aluma]

if not for the arrival of the mongols

And manchus, and khitans...
You get the point

 

[Aluma]

I was just thinking along the lines of -> An Lushan leads to great number of deaths -> Shortage of workers -> Impetus for some kind of mechanization

That could be good for mechanization but not for the dynastys stability and you'll still need a surplus of people later to fill the nascent industry with
Plus if you were to make a timeline out of this having the POD be "An Lushan kills more people" wont be very tasteful, to put it mildly

 

[Miyako]

You know you are the second person to tell me that it was only likely under the Song dynasty

Song was different from other imperial dynasties, they focused on non-military aspects more, so even if they are not called the golden age of Chinese civilization, one must not forget that they were the richest and most prosperous state of their time

I was just thinking along the lines of -> An Lushan leads to great number of deaths -> Shortage of workers -> Impetus for some kind of mechanization

An Lushan killed a lot of people, but he never reached Southern China, it was the Huang Chao rebellion which was the death knell for Tang, the entirety of the empire burned and resulted in the death of many more people than An Shi rebellion, nowadays people tend to forget that the Tang had survived and even thrived after An Lushan went mad, so it certainly didn't cause such a severe shortage of workers, as the demilitarized troops were more than enough to fill the workforce

And manchus, and khitans...
You get the point

This is really a point, whenever China was on the verge of a breakthrough, someone would come from north, it's like a curse

 

[sarsenapati]

That could be good for mechanization but not for the dynastys stability and you'll still need a surplus of people later to fill the nascent industry with
Plus if you were to make a timeline out of this having the POD be "An Lushan kills more people" wont be very tasteful, to put it mildly

I don't think that's necessary at all, the actual An Lushan rebellion and its aftermath killed a TON of people. And yeah I wasn't expecting a revolution on the scale of late 18th-early 19th century England but just a few innovations coming about due to necessity.

 

[sarsenapati]

Song was different from other imperial dynasties, they focused on non-military aspects more, so even if they are not called the golden age of Chinese civilization, one must not forget that they were the richest and most prosperous state of their time

An Lushan killed a lot of people, but he never reached Southern China, it was the Huang Chao rebellion which was the death knell for Tang, the entirety of the empire burned and resulted in the death of many more people than An Shi rebellion, nowadays people tend to forget that the Tang had survived and even thrived after An Lushan went mad, so it certainly didn't cause such a severe shortage of workers, as the demilitarized troops were more than enough to fill the workforce

This is really a point, whenever China was on the verge of a breakthrough, someone would come from north, it's like a curse

Okay I think I see your point. Looks like this scenario is a non-starter.

 

[EasternRomanEmpire]

To have an industrial revolution you kind of would have to have an agrarian one before as the mass shortage of workers you described wouldn't create an industrial revolution it would more have consequences such as the Black Plague (higher life standards) so while someone is making new discoveries in enginnering someone else would have to make innovations in the agriculture to liberate the work-force necessary for an industrial revolution

 

[sarsenapati]

To have an industrial revolution you kind of would have to have an agrarian one before as the mass shortage of workers you described wouldn't create an industrial revolution it would more have consequences such as the Black Plague so while someone is making new discoveries in enginnering someone else would have to make innovations in the agriculture to liberate the work-force necessary for an industrial revolution

Yeah, that's a good point, I should have thought of that.

 

[EasternRomanEmpire]

Yeah, that's a good point, I should have thought of that.

I forgot one thing: in the industrial revolution it is necessary that there is a (merchant) bourgeoisie which invests in new technologies to make profit, because otherwise nobody will use the technological advancements for something useful. It would be sort of like the Greeks who discovered steam engines but never used it for something useful. In China there was nothing close to the ones in Britain during 1750's-1800's so you should make some changes in Tang politics way before that to make a successful industrial revolution.
Although maybe if the technological advancements prove to be useful (in a test) someone finances our imaginary mechanical genius and after this tentative is successful, industrialization slowly begins.

 

[Mitridates the Great]

I would say that what you need is rather someone who wants to invest money in improving their productions, it doesn't necessarily have to be a merchant class. Especially considering that in Asian societies that could work against you (a common opinion was that merchants get fat and profit from the hard work of others).

 

[kholieken]

We dont know what really causing Industrial Revolution since we only have one example. China could be lacking vital ingredient: cheap coal, cheap water power, emphasis on machinizing and reducing labor, enterpreneur culture, etc.

 

[Flavius Iulius Maiorianus]

Inb4 the industrial revolution could only ever happen on Britain and nowhere else and anything else at all ever is totally asb.

 

[sarsenapati]

Inb4 the industrial revolution could only ever happen on Britain and nowhere else and anything else at all ever is totally asb.

Nice

 

[EasternRomanEmpire]

I would say that what you need is rather someone who wants to invest money in improving their productions, it doesn't necessarily have to be a merchant class. Especially considering that in Asian societies that could work against you (a common opinion was that merchants get fat and profit from the hard work of others).

Yes, but its very unlikely a land-owning nobility would be very interested in this so you either have to create a bourgeoisie who would invest in new technologies or have an eccentric rich person invest in it and have it turn successful which in my opinion is unlikely to succeed, however as we don't have any other example other than the British we can't know for sure

 

[EasternRomanEmpire]

Inb4 the industrial revolution could only ever happen on Britain and nowhere else and anything else at all ever is totally asb.

It is fairly unlikely if things go the same as OTL but that doesn't mean you can't create a scenario in which this happens and explore the consequences