Plausabilty Check: The Netherlands ethnically absorbed by the northern German states?

[Korporal Nooij]

Hi there. I have just joined the AH.com forums, and i'm sure i won't be disappointed!

I have been wondering about this thing for quite some time now.

During the Middle Ages, many men came from Köln, Aachen and other cities in western Germany to work in Dutch cities like Amsterdam, and other major cities of the time.

Now, at that time, Middle Low German (Mittelniederdeutsch) and Middle Dutch (Dietsch) were very similar in many ways. Most Germans barely had to put efforts in learning this 'foreign' language.
The Germans and Dutch of the time were both referred to as Dutch all over Europe and possibly outside of Europe.

Northern Germany, Prussia, the northern Netherlands, the whole northern territory had Protestant majorities. Is it possible somehow that both the Netherlands and the/a German state(s) are to be ruled by the same monarch (or any other ruler for that matter), and having Dutch just be known as a major dialect of the German language?

I know, the Netherlands have been part of the Holy Roman Empire. But i mean it more like the German states ethnically absorbing the Netherlands, thus having the ethnic identification of a Dutchman be the same as for example that of a Prussian.

This might already have been discussed. If so, i'm sorry for wasting your time.
Feel free to either help make this possible or to state this is impossible.

Thanks!

-Korporal Nooij.

 

[Susano]

Well, with the PoD you suggesting, the middle ages, there is no need for ethnic absorption. The Medieval Netherlands were, politically and ethnically, German. Aside the fact that the HRE was the German realm, that area was also part of the German Kingdom, and certainly nobody at the time thought of any identity seperate from the German one. If you avoid the Dutch independance war (because the region doesnt become Habsburg/Spanish in the first place, or because no Reformation, or whatever) than no seperate Dutch national identity will form, and then probably the dialect of the area of what is nowadays Netherlands will be marginalised like the rest of Lower German (and before it became an own language Dutch was just a collection of Lower German dialects) in favour of High German, and thus indeed will remain only a German dialect. Though of course, with those economically important regions part of the process, Lower German, with Dutch as prestige dialect, might gain more standing.

For later PoDs, where the Netherlands have already formed, and following your ideas of the Netherlands being taken over by a North German power, there is of course always the succession squabble after William III died, extincting the older House of Nassau-Orange. IOTL, the House of Nassau-Diez won out and became the younger (and current) House of Nassau-Orange, but Prussia raised (rather half-heartedly) a claim, too. If Prussia pursues that claim vigorously, and then use it as a justification for a powergrab in the Republic, the Netherlands might become Prussian. Though by then matters might already be too late: Just because the territroy would be politcially Prussian does not mean the area would become nationally/ethnically German again. I mean, Prussia at times also ruled large-ish areas of ethnic Polish majority, and those areas were not Germanified, either.

Of course, a third possibility is the process happening the other way: The Netherlands grow into Germany, and later take part in the German unification process. Of course that would be even later... I had that in a rough TL sketch one, a Netherlands including the Rhineland unifiying Germany, with the development of two German languages, Upper and Lower German, and with Lower German mostly based on Dutch...

 

[Valdemar II]

Honestly the Dutch are one of the easiest nationalities to assimilate into another, of course it also work the other way, if Netherland had gotten large territories in North Germany, they would likely be Dutch by now. The Dutch are mostly a accident of history rather than result of national "destiny"*.

*Of course so are the split between Danes, Swedes and Norvegian or the unity of pre-German tribes into Germany if the Charlemagne descendants had split the territorium differently, we could easily have with several West Germanic tribes turning into modern nations.

 

[Susano]

*Of course so are the split between Danes, Swedes and Norvegian or the unity of pre-German tribes into Germany if the Charlemagne descendants had split the territorium differently, we could easily have with several West Germanic tribes turning into modern nations.

Eh, I would disagree on those. Denmark, Sweden and Norway, despite all ethnic similarities, did form and "start out" as own states. The Netherlands did not. As for Germany... yeah, kinda. The split was (by chance, more than anything else) reaosnably close to the Germanic-Romance lingual border, but its well possible for the tribal/stem duchies (Franconia, Saxony, Bavaria and Swabia, and maybe also Thuringia and Frisia but those were dominated by Saxony most of the time) to develop as own states and nations, or if the East Frankish Realm breaks down, for a Frankish-dominatd south and a Saxon-dominated North to arise. However, the difference to France was more than just a dynastic split.

(Heh. The above sentence might be very odd for modern readers ignorant of history, considering what regions are called Saxony and Franconia these days...)

 

[Valdemar II]

Eh, I would disagree on those. Denmark, Sweden and Norway, despite all ethnic similarities, did form and "start out" as own states. The Netherlands did not. As for Germany... yeah, kinda. The split was (by chance, more than anything else) reaosnably close to the Germanic-Romance lingual border, but its well possible for the tribal/stem duchies (Franconia, Saxony, Bavaria and Swabia, and maybe also Thuringia and Frisia but those were dominated by Saxony most of the time) to develop as own states and nations, or if the East Frankish Realm breaks down, for a Frankish-dominatd south and a Saxon-dominated North to arise. However, the difference to France was more than just a dynastic split.

(Heh. The above sentence might be very odd for modern readers ignorant of history, considering what regions are called Saxony and Franconia these days...)

Yes for us this split was much more than a dynastic split, for the people of the time no, lot of Franks was already at the time "French" speakers in Neustria, but that doesn't mean that they identified themself with the "French" speaking non-Franks in the same territorium, their national identity was closer to their Frankish speaking relatives. Only time and the dynastic split made them develop a French identity which included the "French" speaking non-Franks. If Neustria had end up united with Lotharingen instead of Aquitaine, we would likely have seen a main Frank identity survive, rather than it being Latinified in the west and assimlated into the unified West Germanic identity in the east.

 

[Korporal Nooij]

Thanks for your replies, everyone!

I especially like your second possibility, Susano. If the Prussians did win, how well would they fare? Would they eventually lose the Netherlands to rebels or another nation? The reason i'm asking this is because the Netherlands wouldn't really be at their doorstep. However they did have the little territories of Mark, Minden, Kleef and Osnabrück, so they might use those to hop over. And then again, the same was the case for Spain before the 80 years war, but for the Spanish, the Netherlands were even further away. They didn't do too bad either.

I've also thought about the death of William of Orange in 1584. The Dutch people offered Queen Elizabeth (and if i recall correctly, also Henry III of France) sovereignty over their nation. Is it possible, somehow, for the Dutch people to ask the Holy Roman Emperor (Rudolph II?), or one of the German states, to become their ruler?

Although, of course, i have no idea why the Emperor or some King would actually risk going to war with Spain for this small piece of land.

-Korporal Nooij.

 

[Theodoric]

Well, I personally wouldn't call Medieval Dutch a Low German dialect (It had changes of its own*), but they were similar enough for ethnic absorption, up untill about the era of the printing press and the Dutch revolt, coincidentally also the end of the Middle Ages. Replace the Bourgondians with a more eastern royal house and you've erased any significant Dutch identity.

*Susano, don't just throw them in the same basket for not being High German.

 

[Valdemar II]

Thanks for your replies, everyone!

I especially like your second possibility, Susano. If the Prussians did win, how well would they fare? Would they eventually lose the Netherlands to rebels or another nation? The reason i'm asking this is because the Netherlands wouldn't really be at their doorstep. However they did have the little territories of Mark, Minden, Kleef and Osnabrück, so they might use those to hop over. And then again, the same was the case for Spain before the 80 years war, but for the Spanish, the Netherlands were even further away. They didn't do too bad either.

I've also thought about the death of William of Orange in 1584. The Dutch people offered Queen Elizabeth (and if i recall correctly, also Henry III of France) sovereignty over their nation. Is it possible, somehow, for the Dutch people to ask the Holy Roman Emperor (Rudolph II?), or one of the German states, to become their ruler?

Although, of course, i have no idea why the Emperor or some King would actually risk going to war with Spain for this small piece of land.

-Korporal Nooij.

The Habsburg Emperor the cousin (and ally) of the King of Spain? I find that very unlikely. Through if you make him more sympathic to the Protestants and more hostile to his Spanish relatives I guess it possible.

 

[Theodoric]

I've also thought about the death of William of Orange in 1584. The Dutch people offered Queen Elizabeth (and if i recall correctly, also Henry III of France) sovereignty over their nation. Is it possible, somehow, for the Dutch people to ask the Holy Roman Emperor (Rudolph II?), or one of the German states, to become their ruler?

Well, it has to be a protestant; that's why Elizabeth was picked.
And, conversely, why other countries would be interested in the Netherlands, along with its ports. Mind, only a year after this alot of Protestants were expelled from Antwerp and other cities in the Southern Netherlands, which was one of the factors that led to the Dutch Golden Age.

 

[Korporal Nooij]

The Habsburg Emperor the cousin (and ally) of the King of Spain? I find that very unlikely. Through if you make him more sympathic to the Protestants and more hostile to his Spanish relatives I guess it possible.

Hm... I'm not sure, but maybe the Dutch could be willing to set up the Habsburgs against each other? If the Emperor becomes their ruler (even though he would likely decline), and has to fight the Spanish, the Emperor might just want to tolerate the Protestants a bit more, since I guess the Dutch navy wouldn't be an offer you'd expect someone to take down, and since the majority is Protestant, he'd have no other choice but to tolerate them or to lose one of the greatest navies, if not the greatest, to exist at the time.

I guess he'd realize that if he'd inflict major massacres against the population, it'd only be an problem for himself.



-Korporal Nooij.

 

[Susano]

Why would they offer the crown to the Spanish's King cousin (second cousin once removed, IIRC the English terminology for that right)? The two Habsburg branches were always at good terms, I think, so the HR Emperor would be a rather unlogical choice, and he probably would not accept the offer, either.

As for other states, well, William III was a German noble (and the Dutch anthem says as much, dont try to deny it ). He was the eldest son of a count, but those lands by way of partition of inheritance went to his brother. If either line dies out quickly enough, the inheritance could come together again. In fact of course, the younger House of Nassau-Orange did until the French Revolution have some lands (half the Nassovian lands) in Germany. Of course, tiny Nassau isnt exactly what youre looking for I guess, that was more of an appendix of the Dutch stadholder

And other German rulers - well there wasnt many German state at the time big enough to absorb the Netherlands. As with Nassau, it would rather go the other way round. Hm, maybe the House of Mark - actually the United Duchies of Jülich-Cleves-Berg might be a good candidate. They were after all known to be religiously very tolerant, and sufficiently rich. And in any case, theyd be right around the corner, so to say. Of course, their ruler at the time, William V had lost a war against in the 1530s against Charles V over the succession in Guelders, and since then had avoided all conflicts with the Empire as good as possible. And besides, while it was a formidable German middlepower, in an European context it was a rather minor power of course, not comparable with England or France. So it would still be a poor candidate, just the best German one I can come up with...

Now the Prussian scenario - I dunno. I think at that point the stadholder office wasnt yet hereditary, right? So pro forma the succession dispute was only about the Principality of Orange, which had been occupied by France anyways, so IOTL the conflict ended with the compromise that both sides could call themselves "Prince of Orange", without that title having any meaning. Oh, and Prussia got Lingen and Tecklenburg, of course. However, if the Prussian King wins the exclusive right to call himself Prince of Orange, then that would of course make him an obvious candidate for the stadholder office, since all stadholders (for the Netherlands as a whole) had been Princes of Orange. Assuming Prussia manages that, it could be the Netherlands and Prussia are indeed only united in personal union, with the institutions of the Republic remaining in existance and independant.

Hm, William III died in 1702. At that time the Prussian King was Frederick I, in fact the first King in Prussia, and that only since 1701, too. He was Williams cousin. Now, at that time he already had gotten what he wanted - a royal title for Prussia, as his price for Brandenburg-Prussias participation in the War of the Spanish Succession. Now that war was a major distraction for everybody in Europe, and everybody had that one goal to restrict French power. Of course, the Netherlands were a major part of the anti-French alliance. So Frederick I could not have simply invaded the Netherlands. Well, he could have, switching sides in the war, but that was just not his nature. Besides, it would have threatened the general acceptance of his new royal title. Now, if the stadholer-less Netherlands do something monumentally stupid that will see the rest of Europe welcome a Prussian intervention maybe... like if they consider switching to the French side in the war... then maybe... but even in that case I think the other anti-French powers and England especially would only accept Frederick I as stadholder, not as absolutist ruler...

 

[Susano]

4 replies in the meanwhile. I type too slowly...

Theoderic: High German is the term for Standard German. Dialect-wise, there are Upper, Middle and Lower German. This correspondends to the old tribal duchies, with Swabia and Bavaria being Upper German, Franconia, Franconian Lorraine, Thuringia and the Thuringian-settled Marches being Middle German and Saxony and the Saxon-settled Marches being Lower Germany - and former Frisia, which over time became largely resettled by Lower German-speakers, with Frisian only surviving in, well, whats called Frisia these days (plus Saterland and North Frisia in Germany, of course). Except for a part at the border to the Rhineland (Middle German), the Dutch dialects were/are Lower German dialects

 

[Boto von Ageduch]

Well, I personally wouldn't call Medieval Dutch a Low German dialect (It had changes of its own*)

*Susano, don't just throw them in the same basket for not being High German.

It is right that Middle Dutch has its own features apart from Middle Low German. That reflects proximity to and distance from the old culmination points "Old Lower Franconian" and "Old Saxon".

But this distinction holds only in an ideal world without any human interaction.
As a matter of fact, the dialects of the Netherlands, Flanders, Lower Rhineland and Westphalia used to merge almost continuously into each other as late as in the 20th century - and still do to some limited extent.

If the political need for distinction from the other country and for integration into one's own state does not separate this region, this also implies that the Westphalian dialects will much less converge towards High German as they did IOTL.

(Conversely, if you make them Dutch in an ATL, they will shift the other way.)

 

[Theodoric]

4 replies in the meanwhile. I type too slowly...

Theoderic: High German is the term for Standard German. Dialect-wise, there are Upper, Middle and Lower German. This correspondends to the old tribal duchies, with Swabia and Bavaria being Upper German, Franconia, Franconian Lorraine, Thuringia and the Thuringian-settled Marches being Middle German and Saxony and the Saxon-settled Marches being Lower Germany - and former Frisia, which over time became largely resettled by Lower German-speakers, with Frisian only surviving in, well, whats called Frisia these days (plus Saterland and North Frisia in Germany, of course). Except for a part at the border to the Rhineland (Middle German), the Dutch dialects were/are Lower German dialects

Well, that's an acceptable definition. I've always equated Low German with Lower Saxon, that silly thing some farmers in the far-away parts of the northeastern provinces speak. It's mostly a matter of perspective; I categorise things according to how peasant-like they are, not according to how German they are.
(We'll be doing this forever)

I still dtand by my Burgundy comment. The Bourgondians were instrumental in uniting the Netherlands, even going as far as establishing the still extant Etates-General. Replace them with a more (south)eastern house and there might not even be a Netherlands region. Now that's absorption.

 

[Susano]

Indeed

Well, as said, in a way Lower German is Lower Saxon, as in the once (Lower) Saxon-settled areas. But of course theres also the more limited Lower Saxon dialect, which yes, also is inside some parts of the NL. But thats just the point - the border between Lower Saxon and the (other) Dutch dialects is fluid, a dialect continuum, as Boto has said...

Basically, all your continental West Germanic are belong to us

 

[Korporal Nooij]

Yeah, and then there is High- and Low Prussian... although those are rarely spoken these days.

Oh, and Plautdietsch!

Anyways, would it be possible for Brandenburg to be offered the sovereignty, even though they were part of the HRE?

Let me see... the ruler of Brandenburg at that moment was John George,

Wikipedia says this about him:

"Faced with large debts accumulated during the reign of his father, John George instituted a grain tax which drove part of the peasantry into dependence on the exempt nobility. Though a staunch Lutheran opposed to the rise of Calvinism, he permitted the admission of Calvinist refugees from the wars in the Spanish Netherlands and France. He was succeeded by his son Joachim Frederick."

He does seem friendly enough for it, but still...
Would this be plausible somehow?

-Korporal Nooij.

 

[Halcyon Dayz]

I've always equated Low German with Lower Saxon, that silly thing some farmers in the far-away parts of the northeastern provinces speak. It's mostly a matter of perspective; I categorise things according to how peasant-like they are, not according to how German they are.

Damn Hollanders and their linguistic imperialism!

Let it be know that works of literature have been published in Dutch Low Saxon.
We even have a Wiki.

We speak our mother tongue not because we are "under-edumacated" but because it is our language!

Grachtengordel snobs have no idea what the country is really like.

 

[Korporal Nooij]

Damn Hollanders and their linguistic imperialism!

Let it be know that works of literature have been published in Dutch Low Saxon.
We even have a Wiki.

We speak our mother tongue not because we are "under-edumacated" but because it is our language!

Grachtengordel snobs have no idea what the country is really like.

Respect to that!

Although i live in North-Holland and don't understand any of the Dutch Low Saxon, i do believe it should be respected that your are proud of this great language.

-Korporal Nooij.

 

[Halcyon Dayz]

Respect to that!

Although i live in North-Holland and don't understand any of the Dutch Low Saxon, i do believe it should be respected that your are proud of this great language.

Thank you.

 

[HJ Tulp]

Respect to that!

Although i live in North-Holland and don't understand any of the Dutch Low Saxon, i do believe it should be respected that your are proud of this great language.

-Korporal Nooij.

I live in Amsterdam and I think a dialect such as Dutch Low Saxon (and Frisian and every other dialect that isn't Bargoens) should most certainly not be respected