Personification of Catholic Rus

Mother Russia, Russian bear, Tsar and Soviet symbols are an enduring personification and symbols of Russia. Who or what takes her place in Catholic Rus? I'm interested in both internal (such as its government) and external (such as political cartoons, pop culture, etc) usage.

For the sake of discussion, let's assume that Olga of Kiev had actually successfully converted Rus to Latin Chalcedonian/Catholicism from Holy Roman Empire in 959.
 
A thousand years of different history, where the Rus is integrated into the Latin European world instead of out on the fringes doing its own thing, can mean anything. Heck, without a religious difference from the West Slavic entity that became Poland, you might not even have a meaningful distinction between "Poland" and "Russia," and the entire area might eventually unify as "Great Slovakia."
 
If we still get Rurikid (albeit now Catholic Rurikid) Princedoms we'll probably see fewer usages of Byzantine Imagery. For example, I doubt the Double-headed Eagle would have much prominence with these Princedoms that could or not could eventually coalesce into a Catholic Rus' either under a Novgorodian, Muscovite, or hell who knows, maybe even a Tverian Tsar.

However as @Polish Eagle said above, a Catholic Russia, though still likely to butt heads with Poland over Ukraine, Belarus, and the Baltic, is going to be significantly less hostile to a Catholic neighbor as historical Russia was, especially given the Ottomans to the South, and still most likely the Swedes to the North as the Protestant Reformation kicks off.

This could all very much be moot given butterflies though.
 
Mother Russia, Russian bear, Tsar and Soviet symbols are an enduring personification and symbols of Russia. Who or what takes her place in Catholic Rus?
The first three, I think, could still exist with a Catholic Russia. Lots of countries are personified as people and/or animals (cf. John Bull and the British Lion, or Uncle Sam and the bald eagle), whilst the title Tsar seems to have entered Proto-Slavic via a Germanic language (probably Gothic), and so doesn't seem to have had anything to do with Latin vs. Greek Christianity.

The big difference would probably be the absence of Soviet symbols, at least assuming that a Catholic Russia has more contact with western Europe and hence industrialises more than IOTL. In such circumstances, the country would be better placed to survive any WW1 analogue, which means no Russian Revolution and no Soviet Union.
 
If we still get Rurikid (albeit now Catholic Rurikid) Princedoms we'll probably see fewer usages of Byzantine Imagery. For example, I doubt the Double-headed Eagle would have much prominence with these Princedoms that could or not could eventually coalesce into a Catholic Rus' either under a Novgorodian, Muscovite, or hell who knows, maybe even a Tverian Tsar.
Someone tell that to the Holy Roman Empire:

 
The first three, I think, could still exist with a Catholic Russia. Lots of countries are personified as people and/or animals (cf. John Bull and the British Lion, or Uncle Sam and the bald eagle),

AFAIK, the Bear, except for being on a coat of arms of some Russian cities, was not the Russian “self-identification” symbol but rather an image propagated by the Brits: a savage Bear vs. a noble Lion (which, as everybody knows, is a typical British animal 😂). The double-headed eagle may be problematic but, OTOH, with the OTL marriage to a Byzantine royalty, it is not completely out of the question. Prior to it the coat of arms of the Princedom of Moscow was St.George on a white horse killing the dragon.

whilst the title Tsar seems to have entered Proto-Slavic via a Germanic language (probably Gothic), and so doesn't seem to have had anything to do with Latin vs. Greek Christianity.
As an option, “Tsar” could be coming from the East Roman Empire: it was used by the monarchs of Bulgaria and Serbia as well. But may be you are right. But, whatever the source, its practical usage as a title came through the GH and its descendant states: they had been referenced as the “tsardoms” and Ivan IV assumed the title after conquest of Kazan Tsardom.

The big difference would probably be the absence of Soviet symbols, at least assuming that a Catholic Russia has more contact with western Europe and hence industrialises more than IOTL.
IMO, this is a little bit of a stretch. Russian social system was shaped not as much by the isolation, which never was complete, but rather the neighborhood, which was going to be the same with the same need of dealing with the Tatars on the Eastern and Southern borders and Lithuanians on the West. Taking into an account the shortage of the natural resources and cash, the noble militia serving for land was pretty much the only affordable solution well into the XVI century and after that it was much more convenient to reform within the existing social framework than to change that framework. Which means that in the Catholic Russia the social situation would be more or less the same and that situation defined economic development all the way to mid-XIX.
Also keep in mind that by the time of reforms, mid-XVII - early XVIII, the Catholic neighbor (PLC) hardly was an “industrialized” country and most of the new things had been coming from Protestant Europe. For the Catholic Russia to carry such a program could be more difficult than for the Orthodox one: by that time the Protestants were considered a lesser evil than the Catholics.

But in a shorter time span there could be an interesting situation if the reign of Ivan IV goes along the OTL lines (his wars on the west had very little to do with a religion) and the later situation leads to the ToT and dynastic crisis. At least in theory, this may give Wladislaw a chance to become Tsar of Moscow (overthrow of False Dmitry I will not be logically motivated but let it be). But would the PLC nobility allow an absolute ruler of a big neighbor state become their king? After all, in OTL they killed Wladislaw’s Cossacks project out of fear that he will become uncomfortably powerful. And if they do, then situation may become extremely “interesting” in more than one way.



In such circumstances, the country would be better placed to survive any WW1 analogue, which means no Russian Revolution and no Soviet Union.
 
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One possibility I find interesting is Kiev/Kyiv becoming Orthodox while Novgorod becomes Catholic (and potentially later Protestant). Would make for an even bigger divide within the East Slavic world than IOTL.
 
Give the connection that the Virgin Mary had within Poland, with Marian Devotions being quite popular compared to other Catholic countries, perhaps you could see some sort of Marian cult develop in Russia as well. It went so far in Poland that the Virgin Mary was considered Queen of Poland, though this happened later on in the 17th century.

If Olga of Kiev is the one to oversee Rus' Christianization to the Latin Rite, you will certainly see her end up canonized much as she became a Saint IOTL. You could see perhaps see the development of devotions connected to Saint Olga, with Saint Olga becoming the patron Saint of Russia.
 
But in a shorter time span there could be an interesting situation if the reign of Ivan IV goes along the OTL lines (his wars on the west had very little to do with a religion) and the later situation leads to the ToT and dynastic crisis. At least in theory, this may give Wladislaw a chance to become Tsar of Moscow (overthrow of False Dmitry I will not be logically motivated but let it be). But would the PLC nobility allow an absolute ruler of a big neighbor state become their king? After all, in OTL they killed Wladislaw’s Cossacks project out of fear that he will become uncomfortably powerful. And if they do, then situation may become extremely “interesting” in more than one way.
Not all the Polish nobility were of the same political persuasion. IIRC, when Ivan was suggested as a candidate for King of Poland IOTL, he did actually enjoy some popularity with the lower nobility, who hoped he'd treat the Polish magnates as he'd treated the wealthiest Muscovite boyars--bring them to heel and divide their property among newer supporters. ITTL, without a religious divide...Ivan or someone like him might pull it off.
 
A thousand years of different history, where the Rus is integrated into the Latin European world instead of out on the fringes doing its own thing, can mean anything. Heck, without a religious difference from the West Slavic entity that became Poland, you might not even have a meaningful distinction between "Poland" and "Russia," and the entire area might eventually unify as "Great Slovakia."
Pretty much agree here. There are almost no geographic borders between Poland and Russia-notice how the OTL boundary between Russia and the PLC shifted back and forth by hundreds of miles, sometimes as a result of a single war. If Russia and Poland are both Catholic, one would have inevitably subjugated the other sometime in the 16th or 17th centuries, the guy who achieved this would have declared himself "King of the Slavs", and today we'd be talking about the national symbols of "Slavia" (or maybe "Slovakia").

As to the OP...I think (following the Latin European pattern) a single headed eagle is probably the most likely national symbol-they'll have the examples of Poland's white eagle and several German states to draw upon. A lion is another possibilty.

Also, expect a lot more western influence on Russian art and architecture-effectively, medieval Rus will be a peripheral part of the HRE instead of being a peripheral part of Byzantium. Linear perspective will be imported pretty soon after it shows up in Germany, and western culture will be adopted much earlier and more organically, instead of OTL where it was done all at once and in a top-down fashion under Peter the Great.
 
Pretty much agree here. There are almost no geographic borders between Poland and Russia-notice how the OTL boundary between Russia and the PLC shifted back and forth by hundreds of miles, sometimes as a result of a single war. If Russia and Poland are both Catholic, one would have inevitably subjugated the other sometime in the 16th or 17th centuries, the guy who achieved this would have declared himself "King of the Slavs", and today we'd be talking about the national symbols of "Slavia" (or maybe "Slovakia").

Not gonna happen with POD that far back, even if everything plays out the same in early Medieval age (for example, pro-Catholic Yaropolk doesn't prevail over Vladimir the Great), the first big difference would be in lack of murder of that guy - https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Yuri_II_Boleslav, as he is as Catholic ITTL as are his subjects and Galician line of Piasts would flourish, and he could be Piast candidate for Polish throne (replacing Louis I, as if he's alive, Casimir doesn't need Hungarian help in conquering Red Ruthenia, and naming his Ruthenian cousin as heir would be the most logical solution, as he'd be eldest male kin of Casimir who didn't take vows and was not someone else's vassal), Lithuania would be tad weaker than IOTL, but as Ruthenians would be Catholic ITTL, it'd presumably still take Catholic baptism, and tag along Poland + Galizia, so we could have Poland + Russia monarchy in Middle Ages already, under Piast dynasty.
 
Well, they can't claim imperium during the medieval era- Catholics would recognize the HRE as the spiritual Roman Empire and all that universal monarchy. They'd probably be under a "Korol Rossii," a kingdom of Russia.

However, I disagree with the idea that it and Poland would simply assimilate each other. Belarusian and Ukrainian languages are proof enough that Russian and polish language and culture wouldn't just blend down into each other. Otherwise Belarus wouldn't exist, or Ukraine.

I think Russia and Poland would have a dynamic akin to England and France; very similar court cultures and language, but their governments are rivals and bring about the basis of their nationalism this way.

As for symbols, you can honestly pick whatever. An eagle or lion like so many European states. A specific design of a cross. This is something so genuinely dependant on the personage in charge and the era in time its impossible to weigh in on. Even byzantine symbols still have their place because of the trade that will still exist.
 
Give the connection that the Virgin Mary had within Poland, with Marian Devotions being quite popular compared to other Catholic countries, perhaps you could see some sort of Marian cult develop in Russia as well. It went so far in Poland that the Virgin Mary was considered Queen of Poland, though this happened later on in the 17th century.
Aren't Eastern Orthodox generally pretty big on Marian devotion anyway?
 
Aren't Eastern Orthodox generally pretty big on Marian devotion anyway?
But of a rather different kind, the entire terminology is different, where Catholics e.g. will celebrate the Assumption of the Virgin Mary, Orthodox celebrate the Dormition of the Mother of God. The iconography is pretty different as well.

527px-Sir_Pieter-Paul_Rubens%3B_Assumption_of_the_Devine_and_Holy_Virgin_Mary.jpg
640px-Dormition_El_Greco.jpg
 
Not all the Polish nobility were of the same political persuasion. IIRC, when Ivan was suggested as a candidate for King of Poland IOTL, he did actually enjoy some popularity with the lower nobility, who hoped he'd treat the Polish magnates as he'd treated the wealthiest Muscovite boyars--bring them to heel and divide their property among newer supporters. ITTL, without a religious divide...Ivan or someone like him might pull it off.
Would this popularity strong enough for him to get a throne against strong opposition from the magnates and their supporters? After all his ‘treatment’ was not limited to the upper nobility but extended to all their underlings/vassals so the magnates would retain the strong support base.

To be fair, situation was not that straightforward because the Duma as institution formally retained its power and, contrary to the rumors, most of its members, especially the top families, survived. On a balance, Ivan’s economic practices were not very good for a lower nobility, except for its limited part accepted into Oprichnina (which gave them a right to loot and kill the non-members with the impunity).
 
But of a rather different kind, the entire terminology is different, where Catholics e.g. will celebrate the Assumption of the Virgin Mary, Orthodox celebrate the Dormition of the Mother of God. The iconography is pretty different as well.

527px-Sir_Pieter-Paul_Rubens%3B_Assumption_of_the_Devine_and_Holy_Virgin_Mary.jpg
640px-Dormition_El_Greco.jpg
The iconography is different because of artistic styles between western and Eastern Europe.

When you look more locally at Poland vs. the Orthodox countries, the difference seem much less noticeable, and in fact many Marian devotions are shared across the Schism. Most notably Our Lady of Częstochowa, which is literally a Byzantine icon assimilated into Catholic devotion. Our Lady of the Gate of Dawn, the other prominent Polish-Lithuanian icon, went the other way—a western image (though of a much less baroque style) that has come to be venerated by Byzantine-rite Christians.

EDIT: there are also a number of Orthodox Churches I’ve seen in Poland and Lithuania that, in turn, assimilated Baroque fashions in the 18th century—their iconography is considerably closer to Western European norms than the Orthodox example you present.

In other words, artistic tastes have mostly been understood (except by the odd chauvinistic monk on both sides) as not a barrier to devotion.
 
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