Perpetual Brightness: Surviving Southern Ming

Hendryk

Banned
What about corn, BTW? IIRC the first records of its being cultivated in China date from the mid-16th century, and it went a long way towards enabling the Qing-era population boom. Also, I need to check but I don't think that, at the time of Kangxi, China used the agricultural potential of Manchuria, since the Manchus would only let in Han settlers in the 19th century.
 

Faeelin

Banned
What about corn, BTW? IIRC the first records of its being cultivated in China date from the mid-16th century, and it went a long way towards enabling the Qing-era population boom. Also, I need to check but I don't think that, at the time of Kangxi, China used the agricultural potential of Manchuria, since the Manchus would only let in Han settlers in the 19th century.

It varied, actually; Han settled Manchuria in the 17th; it was curtailed in the late 17th, and then allowed again in the 1800s.

Corn was one of the crops I was thinking of; I honestly have no clue how common it was OTL, though you'd think it was used fairly often.

BTW, why do you think Chinese merchants never sailed to India to trade? Pomeranz puts a lot of blame on the monsoons, which made long voyages unprofitable, but I'm dubious.
 

Hendryk

Banned
Corn was one of the crops I was thinking of; I honestly have no clue how common it was OTL, though you'd think it was used fairly often.
I'm not sure either, and a cursory Google search didn't yield any useful data. About Manchuria, I do know it's a good place for growing wheat, corn and soybeans.

BTW, why do you think Chinese merchants never sailed to India to trade? Pomeranz puts a lot of blame on the monsoons, which made long voyages unprofitable, but I'm dubious.
Truth be told, I have yet to find a convincing explanation.
 

Faeelin

Banned
Truth be told, I have yet to find a convincing explanation.

I find the explanation that the Qing, reacting against Zheng Chenggong, forbade merchants from settling abroad fairly convincing; this kind of puts an upper limit on your travel time, if you want to retain access to the home markets.

Certainly, the fate of Szechuan and OTLs 19th century Chinese diaspora shows that they Chinese peasants were, if anything, more mobile than many European peasants.
 

Hendryk

Banned
I find the explanation that the Qing, reacting against Zheng Chenggong, forbade merchants from settling abroad fairly convincing; this kind of puts an upper limit on your travel time, if you want to retain access to the home markets.
True, but that leaves out the sizeable overseas Chinese communities who, just by living abroad, were already in breach of the Qing's laws.
 

Faeelin

Banned
True, but that leaves out the sizeable overseas Chinese communities who, just by living abroad, were already in breach of the Qing's laws.

Pomeranz suggests it had to do with the monsoons, as well. That is, it made more sense to go as far in one direction as the monsoons could take you, trade there, adn return.

Me, I find this dubious. Did the Portuguese and Dutch have ships idling in Ceylon?

(Actually, I don't know).

He also suggests that it was due toa shortage of wood, which I find more probable; it was simply cheaper and more effective to build ships that coudl trade with local ports, instead of distant ones.

Hmm. Does this actually reflect a shortage of capital?
 

Faeelin

Banned
The Dutch Go to China


“Whoever commands the oceans, commands the trade of the world, and whoever commands the trade of the world, commands the riches of the world, and whoever is the master of that, commands the world itself”-17th century author John Evelyn

The Southern Ming offered the Dutch a host of new opportunities, as they received extensive trading concessions in return for supplying the Ming with armaments and weaponsmiths. While the readiness with which the Ming adopted European infantry tactics and incorporated Dutch shipbuilding techniques into their designs was somewhat distressing, the true problem simply became that the Dutch had nothing to trade. [1]

China, just like OTL, is a massive silver sink, sucking in currency from across Eurasia. But by 1668, the supply had begun to dry up. In 1668 the Shogunate, banned the embargo of silver, (and with nightmares of a Christian Manchu state), began cracking down on foreign trade. [2]

Fortunately, there was the island of Taiwan, still a Dutch holding in the ATL, to come to the rescue. By OTL’s 1650s, the island was one of the world’s largest sugar producers, and this continues in ATL. The Dutch offer generous terms to Chinese who come to the island to farm the white gold, and surprisingly the island’s population mushrooms.

Ships of the Dutch East India Company carry it as far west as Persia, but equally important is the island’s role in the Chinese economy. Taiwan becomes one of China’s rice bowls, and although Dutch rule would not last long, it sets a precedent that is followed over succeeding generations.

The Dutch also begin to sell sandalwood in ports like Amoy, on the Chinese coast; another trade that will pick up in the decades to come.

The Grand Canal

The Grand Canal was, undoubtedly, one of the most magnificent achievements of the Ming Dynasty. Linking Beijing to Southern China, by the 1700s in OTL it carried enough rice to feed a million people a year, letting Beijing grow to a massive size.

Yet in Perpetual Brightness, the canal falls into disuse during the fall of the Ming, as in OTL. There is, however, little effort to rebuild it, as the Ming view it as a perfect way to supply an invasion of southern China. This presents them with a conundrum, as they are supposed to provide the Qing with rice, silk, and other commodities as tribute.

The answer, of course, is the sea. The lucrative contract for the tribute trade is given to the Zheng family at first, who return home with soybeans, timber, and other bulk goods from Qing China. However, even they cannot keep up with demand, and future historians will argue that the yuan will unite China where the Qing failed.
 

Faeelin

Banned
Is "yuan" the Chinese money? I thought the tael, or whatever it was you mentioned in the previous post, was the currency.

It is.

The yuan comes much later; I had a momentary brainfart and confused them.

(It's weird how people come out of the woodwork over things like that).
 
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Hendryk

Banned
The yuan comes much later; I had a momentary brainfart and confused them.
While in OTL the yuan as an official currency denomination would only come much later, it could perfectly show up earlier in TTL. The word yuan 圓 simply means "round coin".
 

Faeelin

Banned
One of the most important duties the Emperor of China was the maintenance of a proper calendar. It was a difficult task that required some of the best minds of China. At first, this may seem somewhat unusual to the reader; how hard can it be to count the days of the year?

The calendar’s importance is due to the fact that, unlike the Gregorian calendar, the Chinese year is based on upon a lunar calendar, so that a new month begins with a new moon. This means that errors are much more noticeable and hence important than they are with the solar calendar. And given how it is to begin farming during the proper month, well, you get the idea. Perhaps equally important was that eclipses, meteors, and other celestial phenomena, if not properly predicted, could be interpreted (often by rebels) as signs of Heaven’s displeasure with the dynasty.

So, needless to say, when the Jesuits arrived on scene, offering their knowledge of astronomy to the late Ming Emperors, they were welcomed, and continued in this role during the years of the Qing. Kangxi, in particular, loved them. There was only one problem.

They were lying.

Oh, sure, the Jesuits were more accurate than traditional Chinese astronomers. But thanks to the pope’s commands, the Jesuits were not allowed to teach Copernican heliocentrism in China. This was well and good, until Dutch learning began filtering into the Southern Ming court at Nanjing in the 1670s. As one scholar put it:

“Since the Europeans, attracted by the Emperor's civilizing virtue, came from afar and translated their techniques for pacing off the heavens, we have had the mathematics of deferents and epicycles. ….And then, after not very long, there was a change. For what have all along been called circles they have substituted ellipse techniques, and they hold that the earth moves and the sun is static. This means that the Westerners were unable firmly to maintain their previous arguments.

Never has there been a worse instance. From Tycho's time to the present has been only somewhat over a century, but how many times have they changed his methods! I cannot imagine how much further they will go. They are certain to surpass these beginnings, boasting of knowledge that only they have, inventing absurd theories. ”


Yet this did not mean that the scholars of China rejected Western learning, although it would cripple Jesuit efforts to convert China. It did mean that both courts were inspired to turn their own efforts to developing a more exact calendar that they could check, as the two competed for prestige by hoping to develop a more accurate calendar. But while the Qing would continue to rely on Jesuits for the development of some equipment, both would seek Western technology from outside sources, and by the beginning of the eighteenth century clock-making workshops, under Imperial patronage, existed in several cities, both north and south. And the southern Ming, still cobbling together a viable state, are unable to prevent people from learning about the new astronomical methods around the country [1].

Perversely, in the long run knowledge of competing schools of thought in Europe helped to save western learning in China; as it is no longer viewed as the purview of funny monks who want China to abandon its faith, more people are willing to deal to consider it while still distrusting the Jesuits.

This era also sees a renewed interest in mathematics, both north and south [1]. Trigonometry, in particular, blossoms, and interest in algebra increases. In Beijing, the Kangxi Emperor learns about surveying, mensuration, astronomy, and geometry from Jesuits, while books on these subjects are popular across the land. Perhaps the greatest development, however, was the establishment of Sauanxue guan; the Academy of Mathematics, by Jesuits in the Qing court in 1686 [2].

The Academy of Mathematics would ultimately have over a hundred scholars, as well as numerous technicians, and would teach the subjects of the Qing about astronomy, music, and mathematics. This would, of course, be followed by the establishment of the Academy of Astronomy in Nanjing, in 1694. It would be in Nanjing, in 1714, when the work of an Englishman would first be published in Chinese. “The Way of Seeing,” known to us as Opticks.

Meanwhile, the printing presses of Fujian are still humming, churning out works that family cartels spread across the countryside. And as prosperity returns, the scholars of both states continue their love of cataloging items and writing encyclopedias….



[1] the Ming tried to stop this OTL, and the Qing were leery about this as well, given the political implications. Ah well.

[2] This was done OTL, but not until 1713.
 
An update, yes!

Just how are the Ming coping with western influence and evangelizing in Taiwan? Are they allowing some limited preaching there or are they going all Tokugawa on them?
 

Faeelin

Banned
An update, yes!

Just how are the Ming coping with western influence and evangelizing in Taiwan? Are they allowing some limited preaching there or are they going all Tokugawa on them?

Actually, the Yangzi is roughly the dividing line between the two states; the Dutch have Taiwan still since it's not worth taking it.

EdT once promised a map, but he hasn't delivered it.

Okay, question.

OTL, there was a search by some eunuchs during the late Ming (1603 or so) for a Gold Mountain in the Phillippines; this was due in part to the sheer wealth of the island due to trade with America, and partly confusion about where the gold was coming from. By the early Qing, this idea had been mostly corrected, but you also see less interest in what's going on abroad.

Now, it's 1670. The Ming are desperate for revenue. They know that there's gold and silver over the seas; and the Zheng family knows they'd have a monopoly on the trade, at least for a while. Do they go forth and try to find it?
 
Sure they would, I believe it was during the Ming period (i might be horribly wrong about this... so forgive me) that the vast tribute fleets were sent around the world. The technology and knowledge would still exist (even though its been about 100 - 200 years) so i can see the Ming going out looking for oppurtunities to make money.
 
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