Pecari rex, Equus regina: American Domesticates 3.0

How could I have missed this update? I do wonder what the Danes are doing there; they went out of their way to barely scrape enough ships for their Indian possessions, let alone New Zealand.

Also, when did Britain pick up the former Kingdom of Nima and northern Luzon?

Britain picked up Nima shortly after the collapse of the Illapu Wamani (the story of their conquest is here)

Northern Luzon happened off-screen. Basically the northern shore of the island is now dotted with British forts which serve as a stopping point for ships going from the Columbias to China and the East Indies. Their control over the interior part of Luzon is more a claim than a fact, but bit by bit they are taking control either directly or through proxies in the leadership of the locals. With the existence of potentially hostile Europeans, Chinese, and pirate fleets, controlling land to control trade is important.
 
Your TL was the first thing I thought of when I saw this. :)

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Your TL was the first thing I thought of when I saw this. :)

awww, that's adorable:)

Since I'm posting, I might was well give an update: I'm currently working on TTL's equivalent of the Spanish War of Succession, trying to find a way to get France involved without being curbstomped by Britain.

Also having a very exciting time planning all the horrible things that are going to start happening to the two Chinas as soon as that war is over...

I'm probably going to be posting in the help section and starting question threads in pre-1900 soon, but I guess I might as well give a crack here while I'm at it. If any of my readers want to answer, please do! I value your input:

17th century Spanish conquest of Java: Does Java go Catholic, or stay Muslim?

IOTL, if the Ming had kept trading with Japan after they lost access to Spanish (or rather, Bolivian) silver, could they have managed deflation or would they still have suffered economic collapse? (Can probably guess that I'm trying to apply the lesson to the Dun Dynasty here).

Would anyone be offended if I posted woodcuts and prints of old-timey porn (with the naughty bits blacked out, of course?) I assure you, this actually is relevant to the timeline and when it actually comes up in an update, will not be as weird as this question seems.
 
Would anyone be offended if I posted woodcuts and prints of old-timey porn (with the naughty bits blacked out, of course?) I assure you, this actually is relevant to the timeline and when it actually comes up in an update, will not be as weird as this question seems.

Not at all ( ͡° ͜ʖ ͡°)
 
I'm probably going to be posting in the help section and starting question threads in pre-1900 soon, but I guess I might as well give a crack here while I'm at it. If any of my readers want to answer, please do! I value your input:

17th century Spanish conquest of Java: Does Java go Catholic, or stay Muslim?

Depends. How would the Spaniards pull that off in the first place ?
 
Not at all ( ͡° ͜ʖ ͡°)

That question somehow seemed less weird in my head...but regardless, it actually is relevant to the timeline.

And if any reader isn't cool with that...seriously, do message me. I don't have that many regulars, so I really don't want to offend anybody.

Ridwan Asher said:
Depends. How would the Spaniards pull that off in the first place ?

It was another offscreen event. But basically, the Spanish used cannons to secure the straights of Malacca. From then on, they went on a peacemeal conquest over the last century, conquering tribal peoples and small kingdoms on the island of Java, much as they moved peace by peace through the Mayan kingdoms (though unlike the Mayans, the native Javans did not suffer massive die-offs, aside from the reintroduction of baba in the more remote communities).
 
1.) Probably a mix, IMO.
2.) Honestly, I don't have an answer, but my guess would be they could deal with it.
3.) Sure:D:eek:, it's not like you haven't already. Well, actually, closer to fappable material then actual porn. You know what I mean. Of course, I haven't fapped to this thread when there is better stuff just down the internet. I'll shut up know.
 
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It was another offscreen event. But basically, the Spanish used cannons to secure the straights of Malacca. From then on, they went on a peacemeal conquest over the last century, conquering tribal peoples and small kingdoms on the island of Java, much as they moved peace by peace through the Mayan kingdoms (though unlike the Mayans, the native Javans did not suffer massive die-offs, aside from the reintroduction of baba in the more remote communities).

Nah, it can't be off screen. It's like having christianization of North Africa or Japan by sword, off screen. Indonesians used cannons from at least Majapahit era, and until even the first time Dutch came here, while they did had more advanced cannons, it's not by much, and native Indonesians, at least the stronger nations like Javanese had the capability to mass produce cannons. It's better to compare Java with Japan then Philippines. It's not entirely match, but a closer comparison and Javanese did attempted centralization through something similar to Japanese Sankin-Koutai. Until late 18th century at the earliest, there was no question over technological and institutional formidability of Asians against outright European conquest. And I don't think any European nation without trade company serving as its proxy will find a crack to allow for conventional subjugation of Java, just like how Portuguese couldn't expand in India beyond Goa and a couple of other tiny ports. Let alone Spain.

At best, they can chip over small sultanates on western part of the island. VoC did this IOTL on Banten and Cirebon, and eventually came to rule entire Priangan(West Java) directly. But they weren't forcing Christianity around, and allow Islam to root even deeper then anywhere else in Java(for one thing, it's not the ethnic Javanese part of Java. Have you ever heard of Sundanese people ? They previously had an independent kingdom that at one time made alliance with Portugal), which worked to their advantage. This is something the Spanish won't have for obvious reason. I think they can permanently hold the northwestern coast from Banten to Cirebon, but I wonder if 17th century would be early enough to turn Sunda from Islam. I'm interested in the prospect, but I have my doubts. There's no chance for the entire island, however.
 
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Nah, it can't be off screen. It's like having christianization of North Africa or Japan by sword, off screen.

True that. But man, next time, I'm not going to bite off so much in a single timeline.

I'm interested in the prospect, but I have my doubts. There's no chance for the entire island, however.

I did not know the history of Java well enough to really make a call either way (hence why I asked) but from what you've written, it doesn't look like a Spanish conquest of Java would go like a Spanish conquest of the Americas or Philippines. I had kind of assumed this, but I realize in retrospect that this was intellectual laziness on my part. Your comparison to Goa is interesting, and I think I'll be looking more at the Portuguese presence in India as a roadmap to the "colonialism light" I hope to create for this timeline. If the Christianization of Java was one of my timeline goals I could probably do some retconning/editing going forward to justify it, but it's not.

I'll be editing the map to reduce Spanish holdings to just a strip of coast around the straights of Malacca, and the Spice Islands (which I do understand did not have the capability to manufacture cannons, and were conquered in a process similar to that in the Americas and the Philippines.)
 
True that. But man, next time, I'm not going to bite off so much in a single timeline.



I did not know the history of Java well enough to really make a call either way (hence why I asked) but from what you've written, it doesn't look like a Spanish conquest of Java would go like a Spanish conquest of the Americas or Philippines. I had kind of assumed this, but I realize in retrospect that this was intellectual laziness on my part. Your comparison to Goa is interesting, and I think I'll be looking more at the Portuguese presence in India as a roadmap to the "colonialism light" I hope to create for this timeline. If the Christianization of Java was one of my timeline goals I could probably do some retconning/editing going forward to justify it, but it's not.

I'll be editing the map to reduce Spanish holdings to just a strip of coast around the straights of Malacca, and the Spice Islands (which I do understand did not have the capability to manufacture cannons, and were conquered in a process similar to that in the Americas and the Philippines.)

If all they will hold are Banten, Cirebon and Kalapa(present day Jakarta) I think Spain won't be in Java for very long. If they can at least get to capture West Java/Priangan they'll have enough strategic depth to stay. Sundanese didn't really convert to Islam out of self-initiation, but they ended up more rabidly Islamic since Javanese who conquered and converted them have always been relax and syncretic in their religion. And the Javanese invasion pretty much destroyed indigenous state framework which was why VoC was able to take over the country. If they can form alliance with the Sundanese, preferably without forcing gospel on them, Spaniards might have a chance to hold the region permanently. Or they might not, if they're not patient enough over the religious difference. I'm frankly interested in the prospect of Catholic Sundanese, but I think at best Priangan will become a battleground Spain will struggle for with more fanatically Islamic Javanese then OTL.
 
The Spanish War of Succession, 1702-1714

The Spanish War of Succession was globally waged, despite starting as an internal Spanish conflict between Castille and Aragon over who would succeed the Spanish crown.

After the unexpected death of emperor Maximillian V, his son-in-law Henry Chalon, a Dutch nobleman, stood prepared to inherit the throne. Chalon was an ardent colonialist, a member of the Dutch “Amerikaaner” faction which hoped to expand and maintain their wealth by protecting the Spanish-Dutch colonies of the New World, Africa, and the Indies through a navy financed by taxes from Spain and Italy.

It was this attitude which caused the Cortes of Aragon [1] to declare that they would not recognize his inheritance and instead offer the throne to the Austrian Hapsburg monarch, Emperor Maximilian’s brother Rudolph. The British and Portuguese monarchs saw Chalon as a ruthless competitor to their interests and backed Rudolph; the Amboise saw him as a natural ally, since Chalon was the current heir to the throne of France. And thus the war exploded onto Europe-and spread throughout the world.

The European Theater

The Spanish War of Succession in Europe would begin with the French invasion of Aragon in 1702 AD at the request of Chalon. He hoped that the French and Castillian forces could create a show of strength that would cow the rebellious Aragonese. He was not able to join with the French due to a Portuguese invasion which drew his army away and left the French mired in Catalonia.

Even worse was when the British invaded the Spanish Netherlands, attacking and destroying dikes and burning the cities. Despite incurring massive casualties from their initial foray, they were beaten back by the Dutch-but maintained a blockade of the country for several years, essentially ending the Dutch sugar trade. Attempts to break the blockade in 1708 partially succeeded, but in resupplying the Dutch the Castillian ships doomed them; shortly after they brought supplies of food from the Americas, outbreaks of Columbian potato blight destroyed potato harvests and doomed much of the rural Netherlands to starvation.

The Austrian Hapsburgs were not actually very interested in Aragon, but egged on that invasion in the hopes of forcing a bargain where they regained the Netherlands from Chalon. They did not actually become militarily involved, being warned by the Pope from invading Italy and forbidden passage to France through Germany.

Without the ability to outflank the Castillians and French, the Portuguese and English could not decisively end the war. By 1712, the Tudors and Brandons had defaulted on their debts due to the cost of the war. By 1714, they managed to get loans-from the French, as part of a peace agreement. The Aragonese grudgingly accepted Chalon as king, and Chalon forswore his claim to the French throne. The French pulled out of Aragon, but maintained their fortresses in the Pyrenees ostensibly in case “our dear nephew Chalon” would require future assistance. This was a mere consolation prize, since Batiste I’s Italian ambitions were cruelly dashed by the Pope and British crowning a neutral monarch in Spain’s former northern Italian holdings.

The African Theater

In South Africa, the war between the Spanish and the Portuguese would be fought by proxies, with the native peoples between each power’s colonies armed to fight each other.

Criss-crossing the veldt, the Spanish gave arms to the Sotho and to some of the more minor Nguni clans such as the Zulu. The Portuguese crossed the same territory to deliver guns to the Xhosa and armed their own collaborators among the Nguni elite. The resulting war is known as the “Mfecane” or “Crushing”-and was largely fought independently of the instructions of either European power, as the armed Africans largely figured that it was not worth pissing off a potential ally in favor of whichever foreign kingdom was currently arming them.

The end result was that the Nguni and the Sotho unified. In each tribe’s case, a powerful monarch took over and crushed dissent-brutally so in some cases, as the Zulu clan was annihilated by the Portuguese with the aid of the Xhosa due to its collaboration with the Sotho.

The Xhosa did not unify under a king but did federate, with the various Xhosa clans assembling and agreeing to present a united front both in aggression and diplomacy. This sea change in politics would allow the Spanish and the Xhosa to enter treaties where previously they had hostile relations.

The biggest change from the perspective of the European colonists in Africa was the appearance of a new power which appeared in 1709 A.D. looking to find a way to the east. The Danes were looking to get in on the spice trade, and with their navies tied up in war the Spanish and Portuguese governors of southern Africa agreed to let the filthy heretics pass into the Indian Ocean unmolested. From around the cape the Danes would explore much of the Indian Ocean, colonizing the island that would never be known as Mauritius after the small Spanish outpost on it was abandoned and attempting (with mixed success) to perform cultural outreach to the rising Muslim powers of southeast Asia.

The Columbian Theater

In the Columbias, the war essentially stalemated early on. The Dutch sugar trade was ended by British and Portuguese blockades, and the Lesser Antilles were attacked and occupied by the British, who were in turn partially pushed out by the French. Spanish and Dutch privateers ravaged the English and Portuguese treasure fleets, and were erroneously credited with ending the massive silver trade.

In the southern cone an outright victory would be denied to the Spanish and English powers by the internal politics of the Mapuche. As the subordinate of a chief Puelco could not make a general call to arms and expect to be obeyed. He had to go from village to village among Pikun’s neighbors and call for volunteers and arms when he got wind that the Spanish and English had finally come to blows.

In the time it took to raise his army, his chief Nahuel took a canoe north and warned the Spanish base of San Francisco (OTL: Montevideo) about the impending attack. Nahuel was disappointed by the results. He hoped that the Spanish would crush his rival for him, but instead the Spanish retreated north to Puerto Patos (OTL: Porto Alegre), a base hidden in a freshwater bay from roving English ships.

Nahuel’s gamble failed, and he was overthrown and replaced with Puelco. With the Spanish gone, however, Puelco decided that the English were now a liability and needed to be taught a lesson. In 1711 AD, Puelco lead the Mapuche of Pikun and its allied villages in an attack on Belair (Buenos Aires). Multiple outlying settlements and farms were attacked and torched, the inhabitants either killed or enslaved by the Mapuche. Belair proper was warned by a man named John Smith who had previously served as Puelco’s Spanish to English translator.
John Smith had moved away from Belair due to disputes with that colony’s leadership. But when he got wind of the attack, he abandoned his homestead and urged the other workers on it to flee and hide in the woods. He rode straight for Belair, warning them in time to prepare for the upcoming assault.

The British managed to stave off Puelco’s initial assault. In order to keep his men from deserting, Puelco had to gather them together to give speeches and resolve their grieviances (mostly related to how the booty of this war was to be divided). The terrified colonists hastily reached a rough consensus that John Smith should direct them now. He ordered that they evacuate the colony and flee to San Francisco, taking up that abandoned colony and making it their own. There, the British would work harder to maintain good relationships with the local Natives, giving them a rent of European goods to ‘keep the land’.

The East Asian Theater

The East Asian theater of the war was the one where Chalon Spain would suffer its most devastating losses. The British and Portuguese would cripple the Spanish by arming the Sulu sultanate. Eager to end the forced conversions of the Javanese to Catholicism, the Sulu attacked the straits of Malacca and sparked a rebellion among the local nobility with the aid of their ally the Batam Sultanate[2], while the British viceroyalty of Luzon launched attacks against the Spice Islands.

Unable to defend both and facing massive popular uprisings on Java, the Spanish governor ordered their few ships to defend the spice islands (and perhaps not coincidentally, himself) and abandon Java. They fought off the British, and in the face of the Islamic victory in the straits negotiated the release of high-ranking prisoners from the Batam court.

The British hoped to continue prosecuting the war, but their Muslim allies had no desire to completely remove the Spanish. The Sulu sultan in particular saw their presence as a useful counterweight against the other European powers, and Batam was now replacing the Spanish’s violent Catholicization with a less violent but equally vehement campaign of Islamic purification and had no time to continue to wage the war. British victory was pyrrhic-they gained no valuable land and while the Spanish had lost the doorway to the east, this was now in the hands of non-Europeans who were liable to do all sorts of unpredictable things. By the end of the war, Batam had received emissaries from the Danish heretics and were not only allowing these Protestants access to the East Indies, they were granting them favored trade status!

At least the courts of London and Portugal could look forward to one thing: the return of the treasure fleets, with their valuable cargo and lifeblood of silver for Europe’s economies. But the ships did not come. Sheepishly, after much stonewalling, the captains of the treasure fleets admitted the truth to the governors, who passed the terrible news to the monarchs: the silver was gone, and the Pachayep kingdom had closed itself off. While the Europeans had fought each other, their easiest source of currency had vanished.




[1] The nobility in Spain have consistently become more and more empowered since the passage of the plagues. Now monarchy is pushing back.

[2] No, not Banten, Batam, on an island at the southern end of the Malay peninsula. ITTL, it has become the center of a powerful state run by refugees from Spanish Java.

Notable new nations: The sultanate of Batam, in southern Malaysia and Java; the Xhosa confederacy, and Sotho and Nguni kingdoms; and the little colony of Denmark whose name I will make up at a later date in the Indian Ocean.

1715 AD.png
 
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Huehuecoyotl

Monthly Donor
Hey sweet, a new update. :) Interesting to see ATL's War of Spanish Succession fall about the same time as the OTL war of the same name. My only question is about the Dutch faction which called itself 'Amerikaaner'--isn't that only the name for the Amazon TTL?

At any rate, interested to see how the transition into industrialism will go ITTL.
 
Hey sweet, a new update. :) Interesting to see ATL's War of Spanish Succession fall about the same time as the OTL war of the same name. My only question is about the Dutch faction which called itself 'Amerikaaner'--isn't that only the name for the Amazon TTL?

Glad you caught that! The American river is the source of slaves for the now (maybe temporarily?) lost sugar islands of the Lesser Antilles. Their transport to the sugar plantations requires Spanish military might, and is the source of labor that keeps the rich Dutch rich. So, the most ardent colonialists are called "Amerikaaner". This is opposed to the "Boer" faction that just wants to focus on making the Netherlands a better place to live, and the more moderate "Antiller" (sp?) faction that wants trade with the richer Columbian polities but doesn't want to tax everyone else in the Hapsburg (now Chalon) empire to pay for a tiny minority's sugar plantations.

At any rate, interested to see how the transition into industrialism will go ITTL.

I have the place chosen, shouldn't be too long now.
 

Huehuecoyotl

Monthly Donor
Glad you caught that! The American river is the source of slaves for the now (maybe temporarily?) lost sugar islands of the Lesser Antilles. Their transport to the sugar plantations requires Spanish military might, and is the source of labor that keeps the rich Dutch rich. So, the most ardent colonialists are called "Amerikaaner". This is opposed to the "Boer" faction that just wants to focus on making the Netherlands a better place to live, and the more moderate "Antiller" (sp?) faction that wants trade with the richer Columbian polities but doesn't want to tax everyone else in the Hapsburg (now Chalon) empire to pay for a tiny minority's sugar plantations.



I have the place chosen, shouldn't be too long now.

I'm grateful for the clarification! The conflict between these factions should be interesting to watch.
 
I like this timeline. I slowly read the whole thing a while ago and wanted to ask something but didn't want to revive a possibly stalled thread.

Anyway, what's up with Japan? The shogunate enacted their isolation policy partly to curtail the influence of European missionaries, which justification does not apply in this world. Before the edict, Japanese mariners apparently had a reputation in the region as pirates and freebooters. I remember reading about a Spanish expedition to Taiwan where they casually mention they took on Japanese mercenaries in Luzon. Which is to say that the Japanese were fairly international-minded before the Tokugawa.
 

Huehuecoyotl

Monthly Donor
I like this timeline. I slowly read the whole thing a while ago and wanted to ask something but didn't want to revive a possibly stalled thread.

Anyway, what's up with Japan? The shogunate enacted their isolation policy partly to curtail the influence of European missionaries, which justification does not apply in this world. Before the edict, Japanese mariners apparently had a reputation in the region as pirates and freebooters. I remember reading about a Spanish expedition to Taiwan where they casually mention they took on Japanese mercenaries in Luzon. Which is to say that the Japanese were fairly international-minded before the Tokugawa.

Indeed, and I recall reading in Mann's "1493" that a high number of Japanese soldiers, mercenaries, and samurai were stranded outside of the country when the Shogunate enacted the isolation policy. Some of them were thereafter employed in Mexico(!) of all places.
 
An update!! This is one of my favorite TLs :D


I have to find this passage about the Mapuche (they're still called the Mapuche in this TL?) peculiar, though:
In the time it took to raise his army, his chief Nahuel took a canoe north and warned the Spanish base of San Francisco (OTL: Montevideo) about the impending attack. Nahuel was disappointed by the results. He hoped that the Spanish would crush his rival for him, but instead the Spanish retreated north to Puerto Patos (OTL: Porto Alegre), a base hidden in a freshwater bay from roving English ships.
In a TL where you've given the Native Americans horses very early on, essentially giving civilization a major boost in the area and the quicker transportation of knowledge speeding up cultural and technological development, I'd have expected the area around 1700s Chile to have gone a bit more beyond villages, chiefs and canoes. If it was something like medieval Scotland, the Vikings or perhaps Japan that would make sense (the Scottish and Mapuche seem to have a lot in common, anyway). The canoe part at least is the most peculiar; this isn't your run-of-the-mill dugout/totora reed rowboat is it? Pre-Columbian South America had sailing technology IOTL (though just the northern half I think); I'm sure a powerful enough Mapuche leader could afford a decently sized watercraft, or maybe a fleet.

It's been a long time since I read this, though. Would the collapse of Andean civilization be responsible for the Mapuche's falling behind in the world?


Also..
John Smith had moved away from Belair due to disputes with that colony’s leadership. But when he got wind of the attack, he abandoned his homestead and urged the other workers on it to flee and hide in the woods. He rode straight for Belair, warning them in time to prepare for the upcoming assault.

must...resist...urge to make 90's sitcom references... :p
 
I like this timeline. I slowly read the whole thing a while ago and wanted to ask something but didn't want to revive a possibly stalled thread.

Anyway, what's up with Japan? The shogunate enacted their isolation policy partly to curtail the influence of European missionaries, which justification does not apply in this world. Before the edict, Japanese mariners apparently had a reputation in the region as pirates and freebooters. I remember reading about a Spanish expedition to Taiwan where they casually mention they took on Japanese mercenaries in Luzon. Which is to say that the Japanese were fairly international-minded before the Tokugawa.

That justification does not apply yet. Whether or not Japan will close off or become a major player is actually an open question for me at this point (right now, there's a lot of Japanese sailors and mercenaries running around internationally, but they serve foreign masters). ITTL, Oda Nabunaga succeeded in bringing order to Japan, right after European contact with the greater world ended. The Japanese authorities have had time to bring political order into the country, and may not feel threatened by conversions ITTL. In fact, the Shogunate may like having a faction of citizenry who will ignore the rabble-rousing Buddhist priests and don't consider the Emperor a living god. However, fear of Christians acting as a 5th column for European colonizers still exists.

And of course not every threat is about the Europeans. The Dun and second Yuan are both potential threats to Japan. Now that the main source of Columbian silver has disappeared, Japan is the largest producer of silver in the world. We may see a version of Sakoku which sees the Chinese barred and the Portuguese and Spanish welcomed into Japan.

Thesaurus Rex said:
In a TL where you've given the Native Americans horses very early on, essentially giving civilization a major boost in the area and the quicker transportation of knowledge speeding up cultural and technological development, I'd have expected the area around 1700s Chile to have gone a bit more beyond villages, chiefs and canoes. If it was something like medieval Scotland, the Vikings or perhaps Japan that would make sense (the Scottish and Mapuche seem to have a lot in common, anyway). The canoe part at least is the most peculiar; this isn't your run-of-the-mill dugout/totora reed rowboat is it? Pre-Columbian South America had sailing technology IOTL (though just the northern half I think); I'm sure a powerful enough Mapuche leader could afford a decently sized watercraft, or maybe a fleet.

The temperate, lowland southern cone did not have the sort of agriculture necessary to support kingdoms or even much permanent settlement in both OTL and TTL; ITTL, it was finally remedied by the introduction of the horse (and potato), but this did not happen until after 500 A.D. The Kechay (Andes) mountains has been a major barrier to the spread of writing and metallurgy as well as agriculture. Now, the societies living there could have reached a metallurgical level of development on par with the Norse had their large, agricultural, settled polities continued to live undisturbed, but they had to deal with raiders on horseback from the plains (who acted as a further barrier to trade) and the introduction of new diseases that came with European contact. Simply put, the southern cone's trajectory to develop similar maritime and metallurgical technology to the rest of the Columbias has been interrupted by European contact. Hence Nahuel using a canoe rather than a longship to visit the Spanish.
 
I should have written in to mention this before, but I really like your work. I don't really have anything constructive to offer at this point. Just appreciation. I hope that you keep on with this.
 
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