PC: Occupied Britain, island hopping campaign from Iceland to the Faeroes to Shetland to Scotland

[Lost the game]

Just like it says on the tin. Lets say that someone other than the usual suspects pulls a sealion- perhaps a fascist France that gets monumentally lucky and manages to score some hits against the Royal Navy. How likely is it that the Commonwealth and whoever Britain is allied with could mount an island hopping campaign in the North Atlantic to liberate Britain (assume Ireland was occupied with a token force rather quickly, the de Valera government surrendering once the nameless fascists hopped across the Irish sea)

 

[MattII]

You're going to have to be a bit more explicit about the setup than 'occupied Britain'. I mean for starters, when is this actually going to take place? The 30s? The 40s? Later? And just who is the occupying force? How do they treat the local population, both on a day-to-day basis, and during unrest? How did is the occupying force? And what's said force's disposition?

 

[Dathi THorfinnsson]

Commonwealth can't do it against anyone who can take Britain. It would have to be the US, and they could surely do it. It would be bloody expensive, and the cheapest way is probably to uplift much of Latin America to share the burden, but the US could surely do it alone.

Obviously, with a post1900 PoD, it can't happen in WWI, so it probably has to be an altWWII. Much later than that, and the opponent will have nukes, which means no one would try. Imo.

Also, clearly, Hitler's Nazis can't do it.

A more effective right-wing dictatorship in Germany might do it. A Red Union (Germany and Russia BOTH go communist, and act together) is imo your best bet.

 

[Deleted member 94680]

Just like it says on the tin. Lets say that someone other than the usual suspects pulls a sealion- perhaps a fascist France that gets monumentally lucky and manages to score some hits against the Royal Navy. How likely is it that the Commonwealth and whoever Britain is allied with could mount an island hopping campaign in the North Atlantic to liberate Britain (assume Ireland was occupied with a token force rather quickly, the de Valera government surrendering once the nameless fascists hopped across the Irish sea)

In the scenario as sketched, yes.

They will have the massive resources of the Royal Navy to launch the campaign with. Getting “momentarily lucky” implies the majority of the RN is still active, “Commonwealth and whoever Britain is allied with” implies that the British government (or GiE, representing the “legitimate” British government) is fighting on. OTL the French Navy has never been capable of going against the RN, even worse than the Kreigsmarine, and a scenario where the MN expands to challenge the RN needs to handwave retaliatory RN expansion.

 

[Carl Schwamberger]

.. (assume Ireland was occupied with a token force rather quickly, the de Valera government surrendering once the nameless fascists hopped across the Irish sea)

Ireland, either occupied by this hypothetical enemy, or a neutral nation, is my road kill either way. Its a better primary route to 'England' and NW France than Scotland. I'd still use the Scotts route as a secondary & diversion. Also were this on the game board I'd take a close look at how dispersed or thin this makes the defense. It might be practical to bypass temporarily England, once the Scottish diversion is set and Ireland secured.

 

[MattII]

This does rather depend on the disposition of the occupying forces. given what Britain did WRT Operation Sealion, It's possible said enemy isn't able to field much of a mobile force against any potential liberators.

 

[Dorknought]

A Scots Highland sergeant watched lines of French troops surrendering in 1940 and remarked, 'If the English surrender too, it's going to be a bloody long war...'

 

[MattII]

Hells, if the costs of invasion are high enough, the occupiers might not bother/be willing to garrison certain places, such as the Outer Hebrides, Orkney Islands or Shetland Islands.

Mind you, one big issue is, who has the better submarines and/or ASW?

 

[RMcD94]

A more effective right-wing dictatorship in Germany might do it. A Red Union (Germany and Russia BOTH go communist, and act together) is imo your best bet.

Are there any tls that have communism (permanent revolution) conquer the world forming a owg?

 

[Deleted member 114175]

If there's no free, allied or neutral countries in the vicinity and Ireland also fell. How effectively could the liberating troops in Scotland be supplied across the Atlantic?

 

[MattII]

If there's no free, allied or neutral countries in the vicinity and Ireland also fell. How effectively could the liberating troops in Scotland be supplied across the Atlantic?

Depends on a lot of factors we aren't given. How effective either navy is WRT submarines and ASW (and just generally), how many troops are on either side, what equipment they have, and where the occupiers are deployed, etc.

I mean, if there's not that many troops stationed in the Outer Hebrides, it'd probably be worth targeting them first. Not because you'd want to use them to launch an invasion from necessarily, but it can be used to threaten a major movement.

 

[Alex1guy]

I feel like if Ireland is under garrisoned and unhappy, and the support for the collaborator government is weak, I'd try landing there first and securing their ports to build up there and hit Britain. I feel like we need more scenario info though, like how powerful is the navy that is defending the occupied British Isles, how popular is the occupation government, how powerful is the army defending Britain, how fortified is the country?

 

[Peg Leg Pom]

If there's no free, allied or neutral countries in the vicinity and Ireland also fell. How effectively could the liberating troops in Scotland be supplied across the Atlantic?

Glasgow and Edinburgh are big ports so provided you can take one of them it should be easy. Better to take Edinburgh first as trying to invade via the West Coast means you have to take Ulster as well. You do not want the enemy sat in a secure base alongside your supply line. Don't bother island hopping, the Atlantic's narrow enough you can go straight from Canada and hopefully take your enemy by surprise.

 

[MattII]

I feel like if Ireland is under garrisoned and unhappy, and the support for the collaborator government is weak, I'd try landing there first and securing their ports to build up there and hit Britain. I feel like we need more scenario info though, like how powerful is the navy that is defending the occupied British Isles, how popular is the occupation government, how powerful is the army defending Britain, how fortified is the country?

I'd have picked this too.

Glasgow and Edinburgh are big ports so provided you can take one of them it should be easy. Better to take Edinburgh first as trying to invade via the West Coast means you have to take Ulster as well. You do not want the enemy sat in a secure base alongside your supply line. Don't bother island hopping, the Atlantic's narrow enough you can go straight from Canada and hopefully take your enemy by surprise.

Well you're not getting into the Firth of Clyde without major losses. Edinburgh is only slightly better, and only if the enemy doesn't have radar, because an attack there means you'll have to rely on carriers to provide air cover. And "everyone knows" a major port is required to support a serious offensive, so said ports will be heavily guarded, and likely wired to go up as soon as the enemy comes into view.

 

[Peg Leg Pom]

If you're trying to invade Britain through Scotland you've not got much choice, you're not going to be able to do it via the Highlands.

 

[Deleted member 94680]

What kind of idiot regime invades Britain, invades and occupies Ireland, yet leaves Scotland basically unoccupied?

 

[MattII]

If you're trying to invade Britain through Scotland you've not got much choice, you're not going to be able to do it via the Highlands.

No, but you can turn the highlands into a manpower sink, like Norway was for the Nazis before and after D-Day due to the Fortitude North part of Operation Bodyguard. The Outer Hebrides aren't a jumping-off point for an invasion, they're a place to stick a few decent airfields and park a load of fake equipment to make it look like that's what you intend, while your real plan is a strike at Ireland or somewhere else.

What kind of idiot regime invades Britain, invades and occupies Ireland, yet leaves Scotland basically unoccupied?

The thing with Scotland is that it's basically a manpower sink to garrison, due to its size and lack of population.

 

[Deleted member 94680]

The thing with Scotland is that it's basically a manpower sink to garrison, due to its size and lack of population.

But if you leave it unguarded, it’s an obvious way in to the British Isles for a naval opponent. It has to be guarded to protect the northern flank of the industrial areas of Glasgow/Edinburgh/Northern England.

 

[Jellico]

Build a wall.

 

[MattII]

But if you leave it unguarded, it’s an obvious way in to the British Isles for a naval opponent. It has to be guarded to protect the northern flank of the industrial areas of Glasgow/Edinburgh/Northern England.

Hence, manpower sink.