If Russia's expansion is either limited to west of the Urals or if Russia doesn't exist at all, is it plausible for some kind of nationhood to take root in Siberia among the nomadic hunters and occasional European colonists who call the region home?
PC: A Siberian nation if Russia doesn't exist?
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Deleted member 92195
I wrote an analysis on German Colonization of Eastern Europe and Siberia. I have been collecting a lot of research lately as well. The best event would be the Thirty Year's War with the potential of around 5 million migrating Germans. I have got a lot of research and an 8,000-word document.
It's coming along nicely. Huge project but mind-blowing because of its size.
It's coming along nicely. Huge project but mind-blowing because of its size.
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Sounds very interesting. Any chance we can read that document?
Ob basin: Sibir Khanate - a cultural continuation of Kazakhstan
Buryatia plus Altai and Baikal region- a continuation of Mongolia.
Outer Manchuria - extension of China.
Kamchatka plus Sakhalin plus Magadan province: annexed by Japan
Yakutia and Evenkia and Taymir: ???????
Buryatia plus Altai and Baikal region- a continuation of Mongolia.
Outer Manchuria - extension of China.
Kamchatka plus Sakhalin plus Magadan province: annexed by Japan
Yakutia and Evenkia and Taymir: ???????
Deleted member 92195
The word document is "under construction". The language and phrases I use are ad-hoc and you wouldn't understand what I'm saying. Don't want to open myself up to criticism when people don't understand. All of the information is in my brain, thank goodness.
I wrote a lot here: https://www.alternatehistory.com/fo...dental-or-not-germanisation-of-russia.470973/
I have to say though. A lot has changed since I wrote that. I am concerned with the Thirty Years War (1618-1648). I have researched everything from human behaviour for migrating, sociology, ecology, the geography of Eastern Europe, routes of migration in the 1600s, Germans migrating between 10th-14th centuries and 18th and 19th centuries,(so Germans migrating before 1600s and after.) Political causation of the TYW, military operations within German lands between 1618-1648 by the French, Swedish and Austrians. I have also researched metallurgy and agriculture in Russian Europe and Siberia. There is other stuff I have researched but I have forgotten.
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Deleted member 92195
One question I have always wanted to ask relation to this is: do you think Eastern Germans would want unification with Central Germans?
My personal opinion: the German question will naturally become much more complicated but there is a real chance of multiple German states.
In relation to Siberia. The Germans ultimately have break the barrier between the Tsardom of Muscovy and Siberia to explore it. (So that is from the Polish-Lithuania-Russia border to Siberia.) If they are not on the Siberian frontier it will be difficult to send expeditions because Russia is so big and they’ll die of ‘something’ because they are not natural to the environment.
My personal opinion: the German question will naturally become much more complicated but there is a real chance of multiple German states.
In relation to Siberia. The Germans ultimately have break the barrier between the Tsardom of Muscovy and Siberia to explore it. (So that is from the Polish-Lithuania-Russia border to Siberia.) If they are not on the Siberian frontier it will be difficult to send expeditions because Russia is so big and they’ll die of ‘something’ because they are not natural to the environment.
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A greater Chinese presence in Outer Manchuria (and assumedly Buryatia/Baikal area) and Japanese presence in Kamchatka/Okhotsk area could easily spiral into a unification of the Yakuts under their own khan who'd be useful as a buffer state in the Lena basin.
Would they have come without the backing of a *Russian state to support colonization efforts?
I see that, too. The Sakha (Yakuts) originated further south than they are now and migrated north after being displaced by the Buryat Mongols. They had an advanced herding culture, introducing and adapting horses and cows to the Arctic Circle, compared to the reindeer-herding Yukaghir who preceded them. I think it's likely that the Sakha originated within the ancient Orkhon Valley khaganates of the Xiongnu, Gokturks, and Uyghurs, so they'd have been familiar with the tradition of confederating into a nomadic empire.
How would you imagine Russia's non-existence? I mean, I there are several ways of making Russia non-existent and most of them are Poland-wank (and than, at least westernmost parts of Siberia could fall prey to TTL's "PLC" (any kind of Polish-Lithuanian union). I had one scenario, which at least partially satisfies your requirement - I was heavily contributing to a TL (utter Poland-wank and Jagiellon-wank) in which main POD is Hedwig d'Anjou having healthy children with Jogaila and it led to creation of massive Jagiellon empire, which managed to vassalize Muscovy (basically keep Great Ruthenia divided between Muscovy, Tver and Novogorod) and this led to Tatar states (Kazan, Astrakhan, Sibir) retaining their indepedence until late XVIIIth-early XIXth century, when European powers divided these khanates on the tide of colonialism - Kazan and Astrakhan got subjugated by Jagiellons and Sibir got divided - northwest was taken by surviving Kalmar Union, southwest by Jagiellons, southeast was held by Chinese when northeast was taken by mega-France (basically Franco-Anglo-Burgundian union under leadership of house of Valois-Burgundy which turned out to be dominated by French culture), and Siberia reemerged independent in XXth century, as a result of TTL-World Wars (although in more limited borders than TTL's XVIIIth century Khanate of Sibir).
Deleted member 92195
A difficult question to answer.
Historically the Germans got into Muscovy because the Russians used them as a way to build the state from constructing buildings, trade, agriculture and they did this as you know through invitation. Now, it ultimately depends on if the Tzar or his advisors become uncomfortable about the number of Germans migrating. I don't think the question is if they will be uncomfortable of actual German migration to Muscovy, as pre-1600s show that they willingly offered Germans citizenship and accepted them in their society. The question is: How much of that population will the Russians accept? I think the place and space for Germans to settle was there, it was the initiation and I think, the idea of migrating which evaded all the people and they eventually got killed by war. I only just have to compare the TYW against the Syrian Civil War (2011) and the simple migration it caused to Europe via Turkey and the Aegean Sea. Another example is the Jews, I have seen a whitepaper restricting Jewish migration to Palestine around 1937-1939 which would have saved who knows how many lives. I know the reason why that whitepaper was published but it's actually an example of mass migration being hindered.
Now the scenario is based on the political chaos from the Protestantism vs catholicism pre TYW. The political chaos could be compared in similarity to the cause of WW1&2 and the war itself can be classed as the first world war in terms of complete devastation. I, therefore, have put a framework in place to initiate the migration movement in that of Frederick V of the Palatinate who was the leader of the Protestant Union. There is nothing better than politicizing an 'issue of escape' through the international stage and convert that politicization into power and use it as a geopolitical weapon. Protestantism back then was the Jewish question under the Nazis. The Austrians resorted to the first examples of mass ethnic cleansing and genocide ever recorded. Had the Austrians won there would be no protestants post-1648, they would all be dead. However, Protestants were not the only ones being killed, as the war expanded Catholics got killed as well.
What will be interesting in this scenario will be creating the political mantra of Frederick V. In his day there were not many points of reference for inspiration but if you're going to try and save lives it's in the past and quotes. The "Ostsiedlung", literally 'east settling' is a past example of inspiration of humans migrating on masse eastwards to a certain area. Ok, he calls it his "Große Ostsiedlung" meaning 'Great east settling'. The other point I have read is from a famous individual in that this war that started in 1618 could go on for thirty, fifty or sixty years. Put to and to together and you got millions dead which should equal mass migration.
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