Paul von Hindenburg dies in Koeniggrätz battle 1866

[Byzantion]

In 1866 the 19 year old cavalry officer Paul von Hindenburg dies while trying to conquer an Austrian artillery position.

What butterflies would evolve out of this ?

 

[Richter von Manthofen]

While PvH had a Long Military career his great mioment came only in 1914 . Overall his death would not cause many butterflies. In 1914 it might be possible that Hermann von Francois gets Von Pritwitzs Job. Max Hoffmann and Ludendorff (who might be transferred to the eastern front just like OTL) got along well OTL, so why not here. With Francois (MAckensen might be more likely as he was Senior IIRC) in command of the 8th army they might repeat Tannenberg/MAsurian Lakes. From there ? - all mentioned were able and over the average commaders/planners - Ludendorff maybe the "weakest" link...

 

[avernite]

In any case, the sheer amount of German 'geniuses' together in one small region might also suggest it's the general strengths and weaknesses of the countries, rather than individual generals, that made them so successfull.

 

[jlk7e]

So it seems like having Mackensen or Francois instead of Hindenburg probably doesn't change much as far as World War I goes. If we assume roughly the same course - Germany defeated in 1918, end of the monarchy, all that - without Hindenburg, who becomes the right wing candidate for president in 1925?

 

[Byzantion]

So it seems like having Mackensen or Francois instead of Hindenburg probably doesn't change much as far as World War I goes. If we assume roughly the same course - Germany defeated in 1918, end of the monarchy, all that - without Hindenburg, who becomes the right wing candidate for president in 1925?

Admiral Alfred von Tirpitz maybe ? He was very a nationalist DNVP politican after his military career. ( Although he dies in 1930 OTL)
Paul von Lettow-Vorbeck , due to his popularity ? I assume, that he is very conservative, too.

 

[fishingfred]

So it seems like having Mackensen or Francois instead of Hindenburg probably doesn't change much as far as World War I goes. If we assume roughly the same course - Germany defeated in 1918, end of the monarchy, all that - without Hindenburg, who becomes the right wing candidate for president in 1925?

While I agree that a CP loss is still more likely than not I think this simplifies WW1 too much.
Ludendorff's rise through the German Army ranks during WW1 is close to ASB. I think that Hindenburg being dead would probably not allow Ludendorff to become the defacto leader of Germany in 1917 (after Falkenhayn and Bethmann-Hollweg are gone).
And that is a very significant change to OTL if you ask me.

 

[Mikestone8]

While I agree that a CP loss is still more likely than not I think this simplifies WW1 too much.
Ludendorff's rise through the German Army ranks during WW1 is close to ASB. I think that Hindenburg being dead would probably not allow Ludendorff to become the defacto leader of Germany in 1917 (after Falkenhayn and Bethmann-Hollweg are gone).
And that is a very significant change to OTL if you ask me.

Would Mackensen - who is already on the spot as a Corps commander - be seen as needing a Ludendorff to look after him?

Might he be simply ordered to take over, and carry on with the existing staff?

 

[Byzantion]

While I agree that a CP loss is still more likely than not I think this simplifies WW1 too much.
Ludendorff's rise through the German Army ranks during WW1 is close to ASB. I think that Hindenburg being dead would probably not allow Ludendorff to become the defacto leader of Germany in 1917 (after Falkenhayn and Bethmann-Hollweg are gone).
And that is a very significant change to OTL if you ask me.

Good point, and there might have been no relevant general Ludendorff who is supportive to a NSDAPparty leader and no old overrated military hero like Hindenburg who makes this certain "Bohemian Corporal" chancellor. (well, my thread undoubtedly crosses the border into after 1900)

 

[Mikestone8]

Admiral Alfred von Tirpitz maybe ? He was very a nationalist DNVP politican after his military career. ( Although he dies in 1930 OTL)
Paul von Lettow-Vorbeck , due to his popularity ? I assume, that he is very conservative, too.

How about Mackensen himself? If he enjoys the same national adulation that Hindenburg did, he should be electable.

One point. Mackensen lived until 1945, so Hitler (if still appointed) would have to co-exist with him a lot longer than with Hindenburg - or else, as I rather fear, arrange a tragic accident.

 

[freivolk]

How about Mackensen himself? If he enjoys the same national adulation that Hindenburg did, he should be electable.

One point. Mackensen lived until 1945, so Hitler (if still appointed) would have to co-exist with him a lot longer than with Hindenburg - or else, as I rather fear, arrange a tragic accident.

,

Mackensen was actually a huge fan of Hitler. If he really becomes Reichspräsident, he will probably appoint Hitler earlier or step down in 1932 and support the election of Hitler as his successor.

 

[Deleted member 1487]

Hindenburg would be replaced by someone else in 1914, but would they be able to tolerate Ludendorff? Luddy probably gets derailed in his rise, Hindenburg was pretty much the perfect pairing for him personality-wise. Falkenhayn may survive for a while and WW1 ends up being a German victory in the end because of no USW.