Partitioning Germany after World War II
- Thread starter Strategos' Risk
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Max Sinister
Banned
Rename the Swabian Union into South German Union. Is Prussia independent on your map? And I doubt the Dutch would like the idea of a federation with the "moffen" so short after the war. Especially since they'd be outnumbered.
Sorry for reopening this old thread but I found fascinating the idea that the Allies would try to split Germany in order to create "Austrias" within old Germany. This could kill the concept of a German nationality demoting it to a looser kinship concept similiar to the concept of being Nordic or South Slav. Additionally, each country's local dialect(s) could be promoted alongside - or even instead of - standard German.
I have two more propositions.
Proposition 1
OTL Germany divided between Saxony, Bavaria, Swabia and Rhineland. Bavaria and Swabia have great potential to be new "Austrias" whereas - granted - Rhineland is the most artificial nationality created in this proposal.
In such scenario Saar would most definitely be annexed to France as the French were eager to do that.
The Netherlands would also annex at least the ethnically relevant East Frisia and part of the Meuse-Rhenish triangle. No population expulsion is proposed (which blocked the more ambitious OTL Bakker Schut Plan, since Germany was already crowded with refugees).
East Prussia would be split between Russia and Poland as in OTL.
Proposition 2
I liked Wendell's idea of an independent East Prussia. But rather than actually independent I'll change it to a Prussian SSR! A German "Moldova" if you will.
Perhaps if the USSR gains the whole of East Prussia they would allow Poland to keep Lviv/Lwów (not shown).
The less likely part of this proposal is the idea of Denmark annexing Southern Schleswig (that has a Danish minority) and Heligoland. They just didn't want to! Was it perhaps for fear of a future German revanchism? With a destroyed Germany perhaps they'd be encouraged to do that.
And the Dutch could also push their Bakker Schut Plan now that there's an additional German territory for the expellees to settle in.
The big question that arises from either proposition is where would the Iron Curtain go. The whole Saxony being communist seems like an enormous reward to the USSR as their troops didn't get that far.
Perhaps they'd back out of OTL East Germany if they were promised Greece to their sphere of influence and if they were to keep symbolic troops in an internationalized Berlin for a while.
I have two more propositions.
Proposition 1
OTL Germany divided between Saxony, Bavaria, Swabia and Rhineland. Bavaria and Swabia have great potential to be new "Austrias" whereas - granted - Rhineland is the most artificial nationality created in this proposal.
In such scenario Saar would most definitely be annexed to France as the French were eager to do that.
The Netherlands would also annex at least the ethnically relevant East Frisia and part of the Meuse-Rhenish triangle. No population expulsion is proposed (which blocked the more ambitious OTL Bakker Schut Plan, since Germany was already crowded with refugees).
East Prussia would be split between Russia and Poland as in OTL.
Proposition 2
I liked Wendell's idea of an independent East Prussia. But rather than actually independent I'll change it to a Prussian SSR! A German "Moldova" if you will.
Perhaps if the USSR gains the whole of East Prussia they would allow Poland to keep Lviv/Lwów (not shown).
The less likely part of this proposal is the idea of Denmark annexing Southern Schleswig (that has a Danish minority) and Heligoland. They just didn't want to! Was it perhaps for fear of a future German revanchism? With a destroyed Germany perhaps they'd be encouraged to do that.
And the Dutch could also push their Bakker Schut Plan now that there's an additional German territory for the expellees to settle in.
The big question that arises from either proposition is where would the Iron Curtain go. The whole Saxony being communist seems like an enormous reward to the USSR as their troops didn't get that far.
Perhaps they'd back out of OTL East Germany if they were promised Greece to their sphere of influence and if they were to keep symbolic troops in an internationalized Berlin for a while.
Well, they missed Austria then...
To be fair Austria (or at least it's post-Nazi would-be-leader) was trying against all the odd to look like ''victims of German aggression instead'' of well German...Hell in i945 you had guys born in Dusseldorf trying to pretend they were really Swiss.
Big turn around form the days where millions of people in Eastren Europe were digging up pretend ''Germanic'' roots.
Super Parker Brothers
Banned
Expand Luxembourg to have the Luxembourgish speaking parts of Belgium, along with easstward to old parts of the Grand Duchy. Have Belgium also move a bit. I doubt that Denmark will get anything as it had a constitiutional crisis when the King tried for more land after WWI. The Dutch clergy and congregations were against taking the land from "innocent" Germans, even thoguh the Queen wanted it. The Cabinent found that the large amount of land they wanted as compensation for the German invasion didn't take up even a fraction of what the Germans stole. Have the area surrounded by Switzerland join the Swiss, which they had wanted to.
I didn't know that plan. It's interesting, thanks.
I can't. Belgium is on the winning side too.
Agreed. When Dutch and French borders move eastwards it's only natural that Belgium and Luxembourg would match their neighbours' advance.
Belgium's German-speaking community could easily be a little larger and whichever territory is annexed to Luxembourg it would probably be well integrated. No expulsions needed.
Ah! But would the Swiss accept them? In 1919, even though more than 80% of Voralbergers voted to join Switzeraland, their membership was denied thanks to opposition from French- and Italian-speaking Swiss.
Thanks for the input.
Here is an old (somewhat bad quality) map showing my ideas for a German partition. Bavaria returns to being a monarchy, because IIRC the Bavarians wanted the monarchy back post-WW2.
Furthermore the South German Federation is also supposed to contain the Palatine, maybe I missed parts of it out. Also the Saarland might be annexed to France. Otherwise everything should be clear here. North Germany is Finlandized, btw.
Furthermore the South German Federation is also supposed to contain the Palatine, maybe I missed parts of it out. Also the Saarland might be annexed to France. Otherwise everything should be clear here. North Germany is Finlandized, btw.
I like your Proposal One, but I doubt I'd let the Dutch annex that much of Germany if any of it at all. Though, there's also no reason I can think of to keep Franconia in Bavaria necessarily.
I see that the Dutch also got East Frisia
Having a North and South Germany instead of an East and West Germany as IOTL wouldn't it mean that they'd eventually reunite too? Perhaps without Bavaria...
If they didn't intend to expel the local population I think there wouldn't be much ethical opposition arising from within Netherlands itself. Would the Allies block it for some reason?
I'm hesitant to remove Franconia from Bavaria. You see, I removed the Bavarian Swabia because it had a place to go. Nuremberg has been associated with Bavaria for a while and I don't know what else to do with Franconia.
Where would you place it? In the Greater Saxony or outright independence?
I did lump Thuringia, Bradenburg and Mecklenburg-Hitherpomerania with Saxony (like you) in an effort not to create too many states (I don't know if that was your intention too).
Well, for much of it, there's less of a basis or justification for it then there was for the Polish 'recovered territories'. Furthermore, in the latter instance, West Germany in our timeline long assumed or implied that those areas would be returned to it. So, it strikes me as unlikely that further land would be removed from Germany as the Dutch did not fare as badly as the Poles during either of the last two wars.
I actually was thinking that Franconia might be split three ways, but in retrospect, you're right to leave it Bavarian.
Where would you place it? In the Greater Saxony or outright independence?
I did lump Thuringia, Bradenburg and Mecklenburg-Hitherpomerania with Saxony (like you) in an effort not to create too many states (I don't know if that was your intention too).[/QUOTE]
I did intend to not have too many states. You did a good job of creating what are in my opimiom broadly plausible states capable of developing distinct national characters from one another.
Thanks for the feedback, Wendell.
So... after the comments some corrections follow bellow.
Proposition 1: The Dutch get nothing. Now that we're at it, we could see the French Saar either as an outright annexation or as a protectorate as IOTL.
A Prussian SSR would have also worked in this scenario but for the sake of simplicity I'm not posting a map of yet another variation.
Proposition 2: Even if it's ASB I still want to contemplate the scenario where everyone gets a piece of the German pie: Belgium and Luxembourg included. One can think of it as at least proposals arising from within the beneficiary countries (from either the government or the opposition) but never materialized. DBWI.
![NewGermanRepublics[1].png](https://www.alternatehistory.com/forum/attachments/newgermanrepublics-1-png.141828/ "NewGermanRepublics[1].png")
So... after the comments some corrections follow bellow.
Proposition 1: The Dutch get nothing. Now that we're at it, we could see the French Saar either as an outright annexation or as a protectorate as IOTL.
A Prussian SSR would have also worked in this scenario but for the sake of simplicity I'm not posting a map of yet another variation.
Proposition 2: Even if it's ASB I still want to contemplate the scenario where everyone gets a piece of the German pie: Belgium and Luxembourg included. One can think of it as at least proposals arising from within the beneficiary countries (from either the government or the opposition) but never materialized. DBWI.
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Super Parker Brothers
Banned
When I mentioned Luxumbourg getting Belgian land earlier, I should have been clear that it was a trade, as most of the popuation of the borderarea spoke Luxembourgish anyways. Plus they had tried to get the British and French to take Cabina or the Zaire province from Portugal after WWI to give to them, despite the being on the same side.
Yeap, I understood you. Things like that have indeed happened before. After WWI Italy expanded its Lybia at British expense in exchange for not getting a share of the German colonies. I only believe these are rare events.
Luxembourgish borders encompassing the whole of the Luxembourgish sprachraum (through Belgium, France and Germany) would be neater though.
On a side note, I'm Portuguese and I never heard about that OTL Belgian proposal you mentioned. Did they have any compensation to Portugal in mind?
Super Parker Brothers
Banned
UNfortunately, I got the books involving it from college, and their online catalouge is a bit too large for me to find them from. No, they didn't plan on giving the Portuguese anything, who only got that small triangle of land back. For Luxembourg, they would need to keep the language areas only, as most of their old lands had already been eaten away. Maybe they could also combine with the Mosselle Speaking German areas nearby, where the German speakers who refused to leave Alsace-Lorraine or cooperate with the Nazis/Prussians/Frenchassimilationists could go to keep their colture a bit. Though we should all probably look into the zones of occupation for this, such as having Silesia not be nnexed to Poland but to instead be in the Soviet zone, as they asked. Maybe the island to the south of Sweden could be traded to Denmark so that the Norwegians got their claim to northern Greenland, or to have the island to be used for the Ests fleeing the Soviets. Would even be interesting if there was a "neutral" zone around the border for the various Eastern Europesn who fought against the Soviets(or didn't, the Reds just didn't like minorities or living people of their own ethnicities).
The above East Prussian SSR seems a bit unlikely, but keeping it to a geographical term could be useful.. Danzig would be interesting for the Germans, as would the island near Stettin, though they wouldn't ming Bear Island or Bornholm. Maybe some ASB by having The Sloven March and Burgenland being given to Hungary, and some more Austrian land given to Yugoslavia. And back to zones of occupation for Austria, Italy, and the like. We need to remember how the French got a zone out of the American and British portions, and that the French Zone in Germany was seperated in two, so that America could touch the French border with their zone.
Honestly, I suspect that Saarland would eventually be "reverted" to your Rhenish state anyway, unless the French actively colonized the area. In fact, such a reversion could happen as a result of France convincing the Rhenish state (I'd call it Hesse/Hessia or Greater Hesse myself) to go along with its broader foreign policy goals. Perhaps in this timeline, the drive for a European Coal and Steel Community is always more contained and results in a "Confederation of the Rhine" involving France, the low countries, and this westernmost German state. Such an entity could be based in Saarbrücken.
Those darn Belgians!
As to your proposals, I'm not that fan of the idea of countries trading their own metropolitan territories in the mid-20th century but some weird things did happen. What I find totally ASB is giving anything to the defeated Germany and Hungary even though that a German Danzig was only fair and the Hungarian borders as defined by Trianon were just "criminal".
Ah! The Rhenish Republic of Hesse!
Well, but I'd figure that that confederation would evolve into the European Union anyway.
Tannhäuser
Banned
I know some of the old borders are still there; the map isn't quite finished. It's my best shot at the worst the allies could realistically do. I based it on Dutch and French plans for annexation and then dragged the other countries along until Germany was wiped out.
I suppose that Belgium, Denmark, and the Netherlands would do what Poland and Czechoslovakia did: expel all the Germans.
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Depends, the Saar would become its own department within France if it is annexed and they would likely enjoy priviledges similar to what Alsace-Moselle got when they reverted back to France in 1918. French-German billingualism for the Saar is also not as far fetched as it seems.