I'm sure this has been done before, but what would you consider as some of the more ridiculous and implausible moments in OTL history? That is, events that would be relentlessly mocked if proposed as potential POD's in an ATL where they didn't take place?
Particularly implausible (think "Stars & Stripes" level) episodes in OTL history
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Neroon
Banned
Several things spring to mind. Not so much moments though, but developements:
- Ghengis Khan's success story
- The Meji Restoration culminating in defeating Russia (total Japan-wank from the perspective of a timeline where Japan fares the same as say Indochina)
- A Monarch from the historically highly successful Hohenzollern dynasty driving his nation into the ground through sheer diplomatic stupidity
- Chuchill and Stalin as allies
- A Muslim nation having the toughest laicist laws on the planet
- A large part of the German population being hysterically pacifist
- The Ottomans success story
- The U.S. Civil War (not the outcome - it's taking place)
- Alexander's conquests
- Outcome of the Battles of: Midway, Agincourt, Tannenberg (sending highly sensitive information in the clear?!), Guan Du, Chi Bi, Battle of France 1940
- Ghengis Khan's success story
- The Meji Restoration culminating in defeating Russia (total Japan-wank from the perspective of a timeline where Japan fares the same as say Indochina)
- A Monarch from the historically highly successful Hohenzollern dynasty driving his nation into the ground through sheer diplomatic stupidity
- Chuchill and Stalin as allies
- A Muslim nation having the toughest laicist laws on the planet
- A large part of the German population being hysterically pacifist
- The Ottomans success story
- The U.S. Civil War (not the outcome - it's taking place)
- Alexander's conquests
- Outcome of the Battles of: Midway, Agincourt, Tannenberg (sending highly sensitive information in the clear?!), Guan Du, Chi Bi, Battle of France 1940
I agree that the success of the Mongols under Genghis Khan and the success of Japan in modernizing and becoming a major power in the Meiji era would be considered wildly improbable if they had not happened.
One of my favorite -
Spain's extraordinary success in the Americas. Both Cortez and Pizarro invaded huge powers under especially favorable circumstances. The Aztec Emperor Montezuma was superstitious and too cautious and essentially invited Cortez' Army into Tenochtitlan instead of fighting them. The Tlaxcalans attacked Cortez's force and were wearing them down by attrition when they decided to ally with Cortez against the Aztecs instead of fighting him. The Spanish governor of Cuba sent a large expedition to arrest Cortez and his supporters for exceeding their authority, but Cortez was able to induce part of this army to desert to his side and defeated the rest in a surprise night attack. One member of this second expedition had smallpox, which spread to local Indians and then spread like wildfire through the Aztec Empire, weakening their ability to resist. Cortez' Tlaxcalan allies remained loyal to him even though they also suffered heavily from the smallpox. Even with all of this, Cortez and several of his senior captains were almost captured during the final assault on Tenochtitlan.
With Pizarro, he arrived after smallpox had already swept through the Inca Empire after spreading from Spanish settlements on the north coast of South America. This plague killed many, including the experienced old Emperor and his favorite son. Two of his other sons began a civil war for the throne. Atahuallpa, one of the sons, was so fixated on fighting his brother that he did not take the Spanish threat seriously. He and many of his commanders and nobles met the Spaniards unarmed and assuming that the Spanish would not dare attack them. Instead, the Spanish attacked and captured Atahuallpa and killed or captured most of his leading nobles. Holding Atahuallpa as a hostage, Pizarro defeated the other side in the civil war under the guise of supporting Atahuallpa, then accused Atahuallpa of plotting against him and had him executed. By the time the remaining Inca forces started to coordinate their fight against the Spanish, the Spanish were intrenched in several key parts of the former Inca empire, including the capital of Cuzco.
One of these two stories would seem lucky but believable, but both of them happening within 15 years was extraordinary good luck on the part of the Spanish and gave them access to huge amounts of land and wealth in the Americas.
One of my favorite -
Spain's extraordinary success in the Americas. Both Cortez and Pizarro invaded huge powers under especially favorable circumstances. The Aztec Emperor Montezuma was superstitious and too cautious and essentially invited Cortez' Army into Tenochtitlan instead of fighting them. The Tlaxcalans attacked Cortez's force and were wearing them down by attrition when they decided to ally with Cortez against the Aztecs instead of fighting him. The Spanish governor of Cuba sent a large expedition to arrest Cortez and his supporters for exceeding their authority, but Cortez was able to induce part of this army to desert to his side and defeated the rest in a surprise night attack. One member of this second expedition had smallpox, which spread to local Indians and then spread like wildfire through the Aztec Empire, weakening their ability to resist. Cortez' Tlaxcalan allies remained loyal to him even though they also suffered heavily from the smallpox. Even with all of this, Cortez and several of his senior captains were almost captured during the final assault on Tenochtitlan.
With Pizarro, he arrived after smallpox had already swept through the Inca Empire after spreading from Spanish settlements on the north coast of South America. This plague killed many, including the experienced old Emperor and his favorite son. Two of his other sons began a civil war for the throne. Atahuallpa, one of the sons, was so fixated on fighting his brother that he did not take the Spanish threat seriously. He and many of his commanders and nobles met the Spaniards unarmed and assuming that the Spanish would not dare attack them. Instead, the Spanish attacked and captured Atahuallpa and killed or captured most of his leading nobles. Holding Atahuallpa as a hostage, Pizarro defeated the other side in the civil war under the guise of supporting Atahuallpa, then accused Atahuallpa of plotting against him and had him executed. By the time the remaining Inca forces started to coordinate their fight against the Spanish, the Spanish were intrenched in several key parts of the former Inca empire, including the capital of Cuzco.
One of these two stories would seem lucky but believable, but both of them happening within 15 years was extraordinary good luck on the part of the Spanish and gave them access to huge amounts of land and wealth in the Americas.
Dr Pervez Hoodbhoy
Banned
Caesar, the Phony War, the start of the American Revolution, Napoleon, Israel, Hannibal's failure to take Rome, Cromwell's rule, Hitler, Operation Eagle Claw, the fall of the Ming, radical Islam, Heraclius, the Battle of Antietam.
A lot of those actually make sense when you dig into the details as to why. I've give you Hitler, though - he's basically the equivalent of "IMPROBABILITY OVERLOAD. PLEASE REINSTALL HISTORY AND REBOOT."
Max Sinister
Banned
@Keenir: I think he meant Turkey. Whether it really has the toughest laicist laws on the planet, is another question. (I'm not counting Communist countries. Hm, in that way, Albania could count too.)
@VoCSe: Heraclius is a good example. All he had was Africa and the capital, and still he managed to drive out the Persians.
@Paul: Jared Diamond writes that the Spaniards had the advantage of writing and a culture of literacy, which helped abstract thinking and "to think like the enemy". In Cortez' case he was lucky that Aztec religion had predicted for this very year the return of Quetzalcoatl.
@VoCSe: Heraclius is a good example. All he had was Africa and the capital, and still he managed to drive out the Persians.
@Paul: Jared Diamond writes that the Spaniards had the advantage of writing and a culture of literacy, which helped abstract thinking and "to think like the enemy". In Cortez' case he was lucky that Aztec religion had predicted for this very year the return of Quetzalcoatl.
Neroon
Banned
Slight misspelling on my part. I was mixing German and English in my head.
It's called Laicism or Laïcité.
Perhaps. But just become something makes sense with the benefit of the hindsight we have doesn't mean they wouldn't be called highly improbable in a timeline where they didn't happen.
Laicism is a kind of secularism, pushing very strongly for that the state and religion should be separate from eachother. I think that it actually only is Turkey and France that has *laicism* secularism, or at least, their constitutions say they have laicism.
EDIT: bloody internet, always disappearing while I am posting.
EDIT: bloody internet, always disappearing while I am posting.
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The Battle of Pavón, in Argentina. Probably one of the few if not only battle when the commander of the winner side (Urquiza) declared himself as the loser, even after his troops having almost decimating the opponents. The "loser" commander, Mitre - who after became president of Argentina - was running away from the battlefield when was warned about this odd situation by one of his men, and returned to claim the victory.
Several books have said that the rebels winning the ARW was pretty bizarre in itself, considering how many things went wrong for the rebels, and how many other things could have, and how just a handful of things going right gave them the win...
maverick
Banned
That's because Urquiza was the reality of the nation. Remember that he had previously won at Cepeda in 1859 over Buenos Aires. What changed after the battle of 1859? nothing. Buenos Aires remained independent, blockading the rest of Argentina and bleeding them dry, and Urquiza knew that no matter how many battles could he one, Buenos Aires was unbeatable in the long run.
Not that the battle wasn't as odd as you said, I only wanted to show my knowledge in the area
That's because Urquiza was the reality of the nation. Remember that he had previously won at Cepeda in 1859 over Buenos Aires. What changed after the battle of 1859? nothing. Buenos Aires remained independent, blockading the rest of Argentina and bleeding them dry, and Urquiza knew that no matter how many battles could he one, Buenos Aires was unbeatable in the long run.
Not that the battle wasn't as odd as you said, I only wanted to show my knowledge in the area
Yes, he had a good reason indeed. But the hole situation is quite funny. Imagine:
Mitre: - Damn, we lost one more...
Soldier: - Sir, you must return! Urquiza gave up!!
Mitre: - Oh, in this case... I'm invencible!!
BTW, are you argentinian?
Yup
How about you.
Whoa! You're, like, one of the only South American poster here that I know of.
Why didn't you let us know earlier? Or say so in "location"?
Well, there are others. I'm from Brazil, Seleucus VII too, I think there is another one from Chile... We just don't post here so often.
Gonzaga said:Well, there are others. I'm from Brazil, Seleucus VII too, I think there is another one from Chile... We just don't post here so often.
Seleucus VII appears from the shadows
Here I am!
Related to the topic, I believe that is christianity taking over the roman empire. They had all those religious (and other types too
) freedoms and such, WHY THE HECK did they became caste and loyal to a church who says that they shall obey or go to hell?And, that is also the Middle Ages. Because of the church, in that period nobody bath (once a year, maybe). It's pure foolishness, and in a different world, such a "POD" would be called implausible.