Panzer 3 was ready for mass production in 1936

[ranoncles]

There is a reason if they had to go with the KwK36, just like there is a reason if the PzIII wasn't ready earlier on. You are asking the Germans to both have the vehicle ready earlier _and_ to arm it with the gun they couldn’t give it in the OTL time frame.
In other words, you are asking too much.

I'd also like to know what you mean by "Russ Army Group N". The _Germans_ had a Heeresgruppe Nord. And deploying two more Panzerdivisionen there would be the worst way of employing them, there are reasons if HGN was the poor relative.

The short 50mm tank gun was available in the late 1930s but the army successfully argued for the 37mm gun because they were fielding the similar 37mm gun as their main AT weapon and felt there would be logistical advantages if a common weapon was chosen. At the time, the 37mm was more than adequate for its task. As a compromise, the Panzer III did get a turret ring capable of taking the 50mm gun so it could be upgraded if necessary.

 

[Sinclair]

Then the advantage of Pzkpfw III in 1936 is the availability of good chasis to be use for multi purpose thing such as: Anti-Tank, Destroyer, SPG, Engineer, APC....

 

[Michele]

The short 50mm tank gun was available in the late 1930s but the army successfully argued for the 37mm gun because they were fielding the similar 37mm gun as their main AT weapon and felt there would be logistical advantages if a common weapon was chosen. At the time, the 37mm was more than adequate for its task. As a compromise, the Panzer III did get a turret ring capable of taking the 50mm gun so it could be upgraded if necessary.

Being available, meaning, its construction being possible, is not the same as being available, meaning, enough of them being at hand for installation in 500 tanks or so. I don't know at the drop of a hat how many 50mm guns could be produced in a year that early, but I do know with what the Heer went to Russia, after the decision had been taken to upgrade all 37mm ATGs to 50mms, and that was years later and with the war on.

 

[ranoncles]

Being available, meaning, its construction being possible, is not the same as being available, meaning, enough of them being at hand for installation in 500 tanks or so. I don't know at the drop of a hat how many 50mm guns could be produced in a year that early, but I do know with what the Heer went to Russia, after the decision had been taken to upgrade all 37mm ATGs to 50mms, and that was years later and with the war on.

I am not sure what your point is Michele?

The Germans had the technical ability to produce the 50mm gun but chose not to do so in 36/37. It makes no great difference to build 37mm guns for the panzers or 50mm. Both need to be built as the guns installed on the 37mm Panzer III were also not 'at hand'.

When the choice was made to upgrade from 37mm AT guns in 1941, the German army had to replace upwards of 10,000 towed AT guns. It took a fair amount of time to replace so many guns, especially as it received a relatively low priority and therefore allocation of resources.

But by early 1943, most of the 37mm AT were indeed replaced in the AT role by the 50mm (about to be replaced by the 75mm AT gun itself) but many were retained as direct fire artillery support weapons for the infantry.

 

[trajen777]

The 50 vs the 37 was a major battle in design - most of the reading I have done show little difference in the ability to manf / obtain the 50 vs the 37

http://www.achtungpanzer.com/pz8.htm

As early as 1934/35, General Heinz Guderian envisioned two basic types to act as the most numerous equipment for the future German Panzer Divisions. The first vehicle was to be armed with anti-tank gun and two machine guns and second one was to be a support vehicle armed with a larger caliber gun. The first one eventually became known as Panzerkampfwagen III, which was to be a standard tank for the three light companies of a tank battalion. The second one became known as Panzerkampfwagen IV.

In 1935, development orders for a 15-ton full-tracked vehicle based on the specifications by Waffenamt were issued to MAN (Nurnberg), Daimler-Benz AG (Berlin-Marienfelde), Rheinmetall-Borsig (Berlin) and Krupp AG (Essen). In order to maintain secrecy, new vehicle was known as Zugfuhrerwagen (ZW) - platoon commander's vehicle. The vehicle was designated Versuchkraftfahrzeug 619, Mittlerer Traktor (Medium Tractor) and 3.7cm Geschutz-Panzerwagen. Panzerkampfwagen III's development began with a conflict between Waffenamt (the Ordnance Department) and the Inspector for Mechanized Troops about the main armament. Waffenamt selected and was satisfied with 37mm gun, while the Inspector for Mechanized Troops demanded 50mm gun. In the end, 37mm gun was chosen as the main armament of the new vehicle. The decision was based on the fact that the infantry was already equipped with standard 37mm Pak 35/36 L/45 anti-tank gun as well as that only one gun and one type of ammunition had to be produced. The turret and turret ring were still capable of mounting heavier gun as it was selected by the Inspector for Mechanized Troops. Armor protection was to be heavier in the front rather than rear since, new vehicle was to be used in forward elements of assault tank formations. The top speed was specified to be 40km/h. The vehicle was to be operated by the crew of five men, with commander, gunner and loader in the turret and the driver and radio operator in the hull front. The communication between crewmembers was through the use of intercom system. Panzer III was the first of German Panzers to be equipped with intercom system for in-tank communications. Later on all of Panzers were equipped with this device which, proved to be very effective during combat.

 

[trajen777]

In regads to attaching the 2 additional pz div to the North there is an intresteing but rarely written about battle where 8th pz on June 27 crossed the Dvinsk river completely out flanking the Russian armies in the Baltic region. If 8th pz and 41st pz corp had driven (unopposed) to Pskov they would have cut all communications with all russ div. to the west. The Russ forces in the West made up almost 80% of there forces in the North. With this force cut off the German drive to Leningrad would have been acheived. The German mistake was to not exploite this brigehead but to stand there or 2 weeks. If there had been 2 extra pz div there they would have driven to Pskov and perhaps changed history.

As to the extra tanks in the south - they could have allowed the Germans to not redirect their forces south to Kiev from Army Gp Center allowing the capture of Moscow

 

[Michele]

These considerations only change the details of the problem, but not its nature. The Germans had the production of the 37mm up and running. 37mm guns had been designed by most nations and been used for AT work and mounted on tanks in the 1930 by many nations. Producing a few hundred 37mms more was no major effort nor a delay, not to mention the advantages of standardization.
All things that did not apply to the 50mm. So producing it would be possible certainly – but not without incurring in greater costs, some disruptions, and delays.
Indeed when the decision was taken to upgun, delays were indeed incurred and the Ausf. F, for which the decision had been made, was initially equipped with the 37mm.
My assessment is that had the Germans come up with the PzIII earlier, and decided to give it a 50mm, the time gained by the POD would largely be lost in predictable delays.

Note BTW that we are arguing about a very secondary detail. Historically, having the KwK36 was no problem for the Germans in Poland, and not even in France, notwithstanding the much larger numbers of enemy tanks, with much thicker armor plates, to be met there. The 37mm became a problem only in 1941 – but at that time, based upon previous experience, the Germans had already begun to upgun.
So if we move the availability of the tank even just one year before than in OTL, the 37mm-armed PzIII still fares well in Poland, but the Germans still decide to upgun. This decision, like the availability of the tank itself, comes one year earlier, the process is taking place at the time of the French campaign, and by the time they really need the 50mm (that is, in 1941), the PzIII mostly has it.

 

[Markus]

At the time, the 37mm was more than adequate for its task.

No, at the same time France introduced the H-35, R-35 and S-35. A 37mm gun could penetrate their armour only at point blank range and the medium S-35 could not be penetrated at any range. Therefore the 37mm guns were already obsolete the moment the were introduced.

 

[trajen777]

Two intresting ideas

1. If the battle in France had the 3 with the 50 mm could they have held the british counter attack that ultimately kept the Germans from advancing to Dunkirk (fear of counter attack with overextended lines). Thereby haveing the Brit / French n army not being withdrawn. And the inpact on the whole war?

2. The 50 mm 3 having 2 extrat divisions vs russian army at Kiev allowing the Germans to drive on Moscow with out diverting army center to Kiev

 

[bouscher]

In the long term it wouldn't have changed much due to an important fact:

The P3+P4 were good in the beginning, but only after meeting the T-34 in combat could the Germans build more advanced tanks (P5 and so on), so it might have helped the Germans to conquer more territory during the same time-line, but the invasion to the USSR was still critical for further tank development.