Pagan son of Jogaila

[Jan Olbracht]

Lets assume, that traditional "Old Jogaila" theory is true (so he really was born around 1352 rather than 8-10 years later) AND that before Hedwig d'Anjou is available he is already married (perhaps with Rurikid princess ) and has a son (<insert random Lithuanian name> @Augenis )

Now lets go to details: Jogaila's son is born during early 1370s, raised in father's faith, has no siblings and his mother lives at least until mid 1380s. Meanwhile in Poland situation after death of Louis d'Anjou looks like in OTL. Diffetence is, that Jogaila is not available for Hedwig, but... his son is.

So instead of instant union of two realms, it is possible, that Jogaila sends his son (after they both agree to convert to Catholicism) to Cracow to marry Hedwig? Thus Grand Duke of Lithuania and King of Poland are not the same person, but father and son? So Jogaila still resides in Vilnius and can rule GDL personally without need to appoint Skirgaila as his governor (which in turn triggered Vytautas' reaction). Something, that should make GDL more stable. What would be conditions of ATL Union of Krewo? Certainly no incorporation as long as Jogaila lives.

 

[Zireael]

Hm... this is intriguing indeed. Vytautas strikes me as an obvious name for the son, failing that, Keistutis.

As for the union, I imagine the terms would be similar to OTL union.

 

[Augenis]

Lets assume, that traditional "Old Jogaila" theory is true (so he really was born around 1352 rather than 8-10 years later) AND that before Hedwig d'Anjou is available he is already married (perhaps with Rurikid princess ) and has a son (<insert random Lithuanian name> @Augenis )

Now lets go to details: Jogaila's son is born during early 1370s, raised in father's faith, has no siblings and his mother lives at least until mid 1380s. Meanwhile in Poland situation after death of Louis d'Anjou looks like in OTL. Diffetence is, that Jogaila is not available for Hedwig, but... his son is.

So instead of instant union of two realms, it is possible, that Jogaila sends his son (after they both agree to convert to Catholicism) to Cracow to marry Hedwig? Thus Grand Duke of Lithuania and King of Poland are not the same person, but father and son? So Jogaila still resides in Vilnius and can rule GDL personally without need to appoint Skirgaila as his governor (which in turn triggered Vytautas' reaction). Something, that should make GDL more stable. What would be conditions of ATL Union of Krewo? Certainly no incorporation as long as Jogaila lives.

That sort of marriage would not result in a union or even a conversion to Catholicism, no? When Gediminas' daughter Aldona was married to Casimir III, Gediminas was not required to convert to Catholicism or bring Lithuania to Poland. Jogaila's son would simply convert in this case, and barring shenanigans with inheritance, the two realms should just stay separate.

 

[Jan Olbracht]

That sort of marriage would not result in a union or even a conversion to Catholicism, no? When Gediminas' daughter Aldona was married to Casimir III, Gediminas was not required to convert to Catholicism or bring Lithuania to Poland. Jogaila's son would simply convert in this case, and barring shenanigans with inheritance, the two realms should just stay separate.

Unlike Aldona, who was a girl and had bunch of brothers, Jogaila's son would be expected to succeede father one day (at least by father himself).

 

[Zireael]

Jogaila's son would simply convert in this case, and barring shenanigans with inheritance, the two realms should just stay separate.

I think Lithuania at the time just went with eldest son inherits all, so the realms will NOT stay separate AND Lithuania will become Catholic, at least on paper (just as it did IOTL)

 

[Jan Olbracht]

I think Lithuania at the time just went with eldest son inherits all, so the realms will NOT stay separate AND Lithuania will become Catholic, at least on paper (just as it did IOTL)

Not eldest, but father's favourite son was choosen. But if Jogaila has only one son, unlike Gediminas or Algirdas then there is not much choice...

 

[Augenis]

Not eldest, but father's favourite son was choosen. But if Jogaila has only one son, unlike Gediminas or Algirdas then there is not much choice...

It didn't necessarily have to go to sons, just members of the dynasty, though sons were preferred in all but very specific circumstances. Žygimantas Kęstutaitis had a son, Mykolas, but he chose to be succeeded by Casimir Jagiellon. Vytenis also had a son, Žvelgutis, but he was succeeded by his brother Gediminas.

Assuming Jogaila really doesn't have other sons, it's also likely that the Lithuanian nobility resists and overthrows an attempt to merge the two realms after his death. There was a civil war over it in our timeline and in TTL, and without previous precedent of a union, the anti-Polish side would possibly be even stronger, there would be potential claimants such as Švitrigaila to try their hand at it.

 

[Jan Olbracht]

It didn't necessarily have to go to sons, just members of the dynasty, though sons were preferred in all but very specific circumstances. Žygimantas Kęstutaitis had a son, Mykolas, but he chose to be succeeded by Casimir Jagiellon. Vytenis also had a son, Žvelgutis, but he was succeeded by his brother Gediminas.

Assuming Jogaila really doesn't have other sons, it's also likely that the Lithuanian nobility resists and overthrows an attempt to merge the two realms after his death. There was a civil war over it in our timeline and in TTL, and without previous precedent of a union, the anti-Polish side would possibly be even stronger, there would be potential claimants such as Švitrigaila to try their hand at it.

I'm not excluding that option, but still-Jogaila has inective to convert GDL to Catholicism if his son (whom he'd want to marries Hedwig and gets Polish crown and then another Gediminid claims Lithuanian throne, ignoring Jogaila's will (just like Algirdas and Kęstutis, who deposed Gedimin's heir Jaunutis), but it will happen after Jogaila's death.