P47 vs P51

allanpcameron

Donor
There was a film on TCM this evening called Fighter Squadron. Piece of propaganda but interesting idea.
The American P47s, mostly used actual gun camera footage in their fight scenes. However a number of times the Luftwaffe were depicted flying P51s.
So, simple question. In a straight up fight, between equally trained pilots, who has the advantage: P47 or P51?
Allan
 

Killer in

If we assume let's say a Mid 44 point. I think that's a 47D- 28 Vs a 51D-20. Both are practically as fast as each other. But the 47 has more firepower and is likely tougher, the 51 is more agile while the 47 due to its bulk can out dive a 51 but the 51 beats it in the climb. So it really depends on the circumstances of the fight.
 
History Learner

History Learner

Banned
If it was an P-47M or N, I'd give the advantage to the 47. Otherwise, it's the 51. On the basis of fighter bomber, however, unquestionably the 47.
 

jlckansas

If you need a plane to be both a fighter and a ground attack machine then a P47 of any model, but if you need a dogfighter I would go with the P51 until the M or N model P 47. Depending on what type of planes you are fighting you still might want a P 47 over the P 51. Something like the Jug itself you would want the 47, there were many accounts of them coming back with damage that would have put a Mustang down and out easily.
 
marathag

marathag

Banned
The proper answer is you use the new Jets for dogfighting- not that you should be doing that.

Ground attack, you don't don't want liquid cooled for that, and don't need a turbocharger.
The answer for that is the Corsair until the Mauler or Skyraiders are ready
 

allanpcameron

Donor
jsb said:
When, what models?
Where, at what range & hight?
How many, does the much cheaper P51 get more of them?
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The first main air to air battle was mid to late 1943, the first introduction of centre line drop tanks. The P47s were on their way to rendezvous with bombers to escort them. They were jumped from above by the P51s, the P47s then dropped their tanks and engaged. Presumably the filmmakers were using the P51 is because there weren't enough Bf109s or FW190s to use in the filming. So typical USAAF vs Luftwaffe during daylight raids 1943.

Killer in said:
If we assume let's say a Mid 44 point. I think that's a 47D- 28 Vs a 51D-20. Both are practically as fast as each other. But the 47 has more firepower and is likely tougher, the 51 is more agile while the 47 due to its bulk can out dive a 51 but the 51 beats it in the climb. So it really depends on the circumstances of the fight.
Click to expand...

In the film by mid-44 the P47s become ground attack aircraft in support of D-Day. There is another air to air battle in later '44 when the P47s are attacking a Luftwaffe airfield and again are jumped by P51s, so this battle tends to be at low level.

History Learner said:
If it was an P-47M or N, I'd give the advantage to the 47. Otherwise, it's the 51. On the basis of fighter bomber, however, unquestionably the 47.
Click to expand...

According to Wiki (see above) they used ANG squadrons for the filming in 1948, so the film used later P47 types, however the question is in the period between 1943-5 who would come out better in a head to head between the two types?

jlckansas said:
If you need a plane to be both a fighter and a ground attack machine then a P47 of any model, but if you need a dogfighter I would go with the P51 until the M or N model P 47. Depending on what type of planes you are fighting you still might want a P 47 over the P 51. Something like the Jug itself you would want the 47, there were many accounts of them coming back with damage that would have put a Mustang down and out easily.
Click to expand...

It was a propaganda piece, so although there were losses among the P47s the loss rate for the Luftwaffe was much higher, as OTL. So if Luftwaffe were flying P51s instead of Bf109s, all other things being equal, what difference would it make?

marathag said:
The proper answer is you use the new Jets for dogfighting- not that you should be doing that.
Ground attack, you don't don't want liquid cooled for that, and don't need a turbocharger.
The answer for that is the Corsair until the Mauler or Skyraiders are ready
Click to expand...

This isn't linked to Ship Shape, just watching a film and wondering, 'What if...?'
 

allanpcameron

Donor
tomo pauk said:
What part of ww2 is in question? Altitude of combat?
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As per above:
The first main air to air battle was mid to late 1943, the first introduction of centre line drop tanks. The P47s were on their way to rendezvous with bombers to escort them. They were jumped from above by the P51s, the P47s then dropped their tanks and engaged.
There is another air to air battle in later '44 when the P47s are attacking a Luftwaffe airfield and again are jumped by P51s, so this battle tends to be at low level.
 

tomo pauk

allanpcameron said:
As per above:
The first main air to air battle was mid to late 1943, the first introduction of centre line drop tanks. The P47s were on their way to rendezvous with bombers to escort them. They were jumped from above by the P51s, the P47s then dropped their tanks and engaged.
There is another air to air battle in later '44 when the P47s are attacking a Luftwaffe airfield and again are jumped by P51s, so this battle tends to be at low level.
Click to expand...

Okay. The P-51s in any time of 1943 will have had a hard time to jump on the P-47s above, with P-47s flying at 20000-27000 ft (= B-24/B-17s cruising altitude). Reason - the in-service P-51s and P-51As were still powered by the V-1710 with the so-so 1-stage supercharger, meaning a weak performance above 15000-20000 ft vs. P-47 (turbo + engine-stage supercharger = 2 stages of supercharging). So the 1st combat should be in favor of the P-47s.
In 1944, the Merlin Mustang is around. It should be much closer comparison vs. the P-47s of 1944, outcome depending mostly on who saw the enemy 1st.
 

riggerrob

P-51D had greater range.

Since WW2, just about every wartime WALLIED fighter has competed in Cleveland or Reno air races, but P-47s dropped out pretty early. Over the years, the field has narrowed to sleek P-51s competing against Sea Furies or Grumman Bearcats with massive, American-made radial engines.
As drag racers remind us: there is no substitute for cubic inches.

Remember that during the summer of 1944, Mustangs, Thunderbolts, Spitfires, Typhoons, etc. were relegated to ground attack duties - in Normandy - because they had destroyed much of the Luftwaffe and WALLIED generals feared that idle fighter squadrons might get into mischief. None of those single-seat fighters were ideal for ground attack. Only Typhoons carried a significant load of bombs and cannons. Typhoons killed few Panzers, but they badly mauled German soft-skin transport, depriving German front-line troops of fuel, ammo and spare parts.
 

Cryhavoc101

riggerrob said:
P-51D had greater range.

Since WW2, just about every wartime WALLIED fighter has competed in Cleveland or Reno air races, but P-47s dropped out pretty early. Over the years, the field has narrowed to sleek P-51s competing against Sea Furies or Grumman Bearcats with massive, American-made radial engines.
As drag racers remind us: there is no substitute for cubic inches.

Remember that during the summer of 1944, Mustangs, Thunderbolts, Spitfires, Typhoons, etc. were relegated to ground attack duties - in Normandy - because they had destroyed much of the Luftwaffe and WALLIED generals feared that idle fighter squadrons might get into mischief. None of those single-seat fighters were ideal for ground attack. Only Typhoons carried a significant load of bombs and cannons. Typhoons killed few Panzers, but they badly mauled German soft-skin transport, depriving German front-line troops of fuel, ammo and spare parts.
Click to expand...

And mobility

I was presented with a pretty good 'thesis' on Jabos verse AFVs in that it was not the actual killing tanks that made Jabos so effective but the 'reverse lottery' mindset that it gave AFV crews.

All AFV crews in the Heer/SS knew someone or knew some one who knew someone that had been killed by rocket firing British or American fighter bombers - even if the chances were less than 1% and the crews were better off staying buttoned up - no one wanted to be the 'winner' and they would take their chances in a ditch away from the Tank.
 

tomo pauk

riggerrob said:
P-51D had greater range.

Since WW2, just about every wartime WALLIED fighter has competed in Cleveland or Reno air races, but P-47s dropped out pretty early. Over the years, the field has narrowed to sleek P-51s competing against Sea Furies or Grumman Bearcats with massive, American-made radial engines.
As drag racers remind us: there is no substitute for cubic inches.
Click to expand...

In ww2 piston engines' business, a lot of cubic inches does not necessarily mean that engine A is better than engine B. Also, drag racers can be as aerodynamical as brick house, that does not work with aircraft.

Remember that during the summer of 1944, Mustangs, Thunderbolts, Spitfires, Typhoons, etc. were relegated to ground attack duties - in Normandy - because they had destroyed much of the Luftwaffe and WALLIED generals feared that idle fighter squadrons might get into mischief. None of those single-seat fighters were ideal for ground attack. Only Typhoons carried a significant load of bombs and cannons. Typhoons killed few Panzers, but they badly mauled German soft-skin transport, depriving German front-line troops of fuel, ammo and spare parts.
Click to expand...

Mustangs were still very much escorting heavy bombers to Germany proper in whole of 1944, summer included.
 

CalBear

Moderator
Donor
Monthly Donor
It is actually an interesting question. The planes had some very distinct differences that makes them tough to compare. The P-47 was a bruiser, there are verified cases of the plane surviving things that it had no business returning from (my personal favorite was the guy who, while screwing around, crashed into a telephone pole with his starboard wing, flew back to base, and landed with a 3' chunk of the pole still in the wing), but it was also surprisingly maneuverable. Two of the top three USAAF aces in the ETO flew Thunderbolts and four of the top five had at least half their victories in a P-47.

The P-51 had that incredible range and a better overall climb rate (although the P-47 had a very impressive "zoom climb" which is a straight up gift in combat, thanks to its diving ability). The Mustang was less rugged than the P-47, mainly due to having a water-cooled engine (the R-2800 radial in the Jug, F4U, F6F & F8F would keep running even if one or two cylinders were SHOT OFF). The Mustang could out turn a P-47 at altitude.

Overall the winner is going to depend on which pilot uses his aircraft's strengths more effectively, assuming they meet in a head to head meeting engagement.
 
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