Outcome of early 1930s German elections without Hitler?

The 1930 German federal election marked a major turning point in German history, as during that election, the Nazis were able to achieve a surprise victory, winning 107 seats and 18.3% of the popular vote and becoming the second largest party in Germany. Later on in the July 1932 election, the Nazis achieved a even bigger victory when they received 230 seats and 37.3% of the popular vote, and while they performed worse in the November 1932 election, Hitler nevertheless managed to succeed in getting Hindenburg to appoint him as Chancellor on January 30, 1933, after which he would eventually become the Fuhrer of Germany upon Hindenburg's death on August 2, 1934.

What would be the outcome of the elections that take place in Germany in the early 1930s if Hitler was just one of the many people killed in WWI? The 1930 German federal election likely still takes place, but would there be any federal elections in 1932 or 1933 or would there not be any until 1934? Would the SPD and Centre run their own candidates instead of supporting Hindenburg in the 1932 presidential election, and if so, what candidates would they run?
 
Probably some other more orthodox right wing party like the DNVP.
Resentment over Versailles and lack of faith in the republic isn’t going away without Hitler.
 
Question is rather : what (not simply who) replaces the "Hitler"-party aka NSDAP ?

Until 1929/30 the NASDAP was quite fringe party (though other rightish outliers were even 'fringier' ... IOTL). It were the efeects of the partys re- and almost neworganization begun after 1916 by Gregor Strasser that made the stunning succsess of 9130 possible. ... together with a damn awful lot of other things going down the pipe for the Brüning goverment :
first and for all : the Great Depression with asll its consequences globally as well as for germany​
the - from todays pov - wrong countering : austerity policy (far from only a german phenomenon at this time)​
the 'mishap' for the planned autro-german custom-union​

DNVP ? ... don't understand why so many people keep on hitting on that dead horse.
The DNVP plummeted from its alltime hiegh of just over 20% at the 2nd election of 1914 over just above 14% in 1928 to the abysmal 7.03 % of voters share in 1930 ... and never recovered above 8.66 %.
ITTL it might ... stabilize somewhere around 10-12 (if lucky) percent at best. They were a spent force having left and busted the 2. Marx goverment in summer 1928 just after having won their alltime high on voters share.

Thererfore I would ask:
which party would Gregor Strasser eventually join ?​
It were his steering of electorial propaganda (at this time Goebbels wasn't more than a title given but without much real influence on propaganda) with his sometimes rather social to socialistc seeming topics (... or promising everything to everybody in for its time unusual and obviously siccsessfull manners) that actually won the day on 20th september 1930 right in the middle of downsurge of the Great depression.
 

thaddeus

Donor
Hugenberg comes to prominence

Question is rather : what (not simply who) replaces the "Hitler"-party aka NSDAP ?

Until 1929/30 the NASDAP was quite fringe party (though other rightish outliers were even 'fringier' ... IOTL). It were the efeects of the partys re- and almost neworganization begun after 1916 by Gregor Strasser that made the stunning succsess of 9130 possible. ... together with a damn awful lot of other things going down the pipe for the Brüning goverment :
first and for all : the Great Depression with asll its consequences globally as well as for germany​
the - from todays pov - wrong countering : austerity policy (far from only a german phenomenon at this time)​
the 'mishap' for the planned autro-german custom-union​

DNVP ? ... don't understand why so many people keep on hitting on that dead horse.
The DNVP plummeted from its alltime hiegh of just over 20% at the 2nd election of 1914 over just above 14% in 1928 to the abysmal 7.03 % of voters share in 1930 ... and never recovered above 8.66 %.
ITTL it might ... stabilize somewhere around 10-12 (if lucky) percent at best. They were a spent force having left and busted the 2. Marx goverment in summer 1928 just after having won their alltime high on voters share.

Thererfore I would ask:
which party would Gregor Strasser eventually join ?​
It were his steering of electorial propaganda (at this time Goebbels wasn't more than a title given but without much real influence on propaganda) with his sometimes rather social to socialistc seeming topics (... or promising everything to everybody in for its time unusual and obviously siccsessfull manners) that actually won the day on 20th september 1930 right in the middle of downsurge of the Great depression.

which party does Hermann Goering join? can imagine an attraction to Hugenberg's wealth and a poor end for Hugenberg himself or looking at the Nazi cast of characters Goering would be the most plausible candidate.
 
Honestly, by removing the NSDAP, the new fight would be primarily between the SPD and the KPD. The SPD was the second largest party in the Reichstag at the time, and with no "funny mustache man", the SPD doesn't have to deal with 1 extra party with a sizeable paramilitary wing to fight against. The SPD might have shot up to first, with the Communists in second place. Its more likely that the centre-right German conservatives like the BVP, or Centre Party rally behind the SPD to ally against the Communiss.
 

marathag

Banned
Honestly, by removing the NSDAP, the new fight would be primarily between the SPD and the KPD. The SPD was the second largest party in the Reichstag at the time, and with no "funny mustache man", the SPD doesn't have to deal with 1 extra party with a sizeable paramilitary wing to fight against. The SPD might have shot up to first, with the Communists in second place. Its more likely that the centre-right German conservatives like the BVP, or Centre Party rally behind the SPD to ally against the Communiss.
Without Hitler, Fat Hermann becomes the Face of the Nazi Party, rather than original head of the SA in the '20s.
It's possible for him to avoid being wounded during the Putsch, since he's taking the place of AH.
So he goes to prison for a bit, rather than getting hooked on opiates. Also possible for his wife not to die from tuberculosis without following him during his exile from Germany
So we have a leaner and meaner Hermann
 
Without Hitler, Fat Hermann becomes the Face of the Nazi Party, rather than original head of the SA in the '20s.
It's possible for him to avoid being wounded during the Putsch, since he's taking the place of AH.
So he goes to prison for a bit, rather than getting hooked on opiates. Also possible for his wife not to die from tuberculosis without following him during his exile from Germany
So we have a leaner and meaner Hermann
But... without Hitler, "Fat Hermann" doesnt join the Nazi party, because there IS no Nazi party. Although the Nazi party existed, without Hitler, it remains a fairly small, inconsequential fringe group. Even then, without Hitler, a strengthened SPD (and so, Iron Front) can easily take on the SA of this new TL. The only thing that would make things interesting would be the KPD doing what they did OTL, and simply joining with the Nazis against the Social-Democrats.
 
if Hitler was just one of the many people killed in WWI?
Without Hitler, Fat Hermann becomes the Face of the Nazi Party, rather than original head of the SA in the '20s.
Without Hitler, there is No NSDAP !
it was Hitler that transformed the DAP, a obscure Bavaria Worker Party into a Movement that took over Germany !
Without Hitler the DAP would dissolve after it Original founder died in 1920

And...

Herman Göring Face of a Party ? He is most incompetent man in politic !

back to 1930s elections
Without NSDAP, who profit of now of elections ?
DNVP or how we germans called them "Treppenwitz der Geschichte" even with Göring, Himmler and Co,
Alfred Hugenberg can pump million Reichsmark into DNVP, they never got over 9%

SPD was loosing also in 1930s steadily voters, from 25% down to 18% in 1933 the last democratic election
The Communist internal dispute, fell from 13% to 12%
The only one would profit from the mess are conservative from Zentrum Party: Anti democratic, monarchistic, back to good old days of Empire...
 

marathag

Banned
But... without Hitler, "Fat Hermann" doesnt join the Nazi party, because there IS no Nazi party. Although the Nazi party existed, without Hitler, it remains a fairly small, inconsequential fringe group. Even then, without Hitler, a strengthened SPD (and so, Iron Front) can easily take on the SA of this new TL. The only thing that would make things interesting would be the KPD doing what they did OTL, and simply joining with the Nazis against the Social-Democrats.
Hitler was not Nazi #1 in the party structure
 
Hitler was not Nazi #1 in the party structure
It was Hitler that keep DAP alive
founded in 1919 by Anton Drexler, along with Dietrich Eckart, Gottfried Feder and Karl Harrer, in total with 22 members.
Hitler join the DAP as the 55th member of small group with fewer than 60 members.
He was crucial for Funktion and survival of DAP, either for his oratory skills or party financing were Hitler show almost criminal talent.
In 1921 happen in DAP a mutiny broke out within the party about joining with the rival far right Deutschsozialistische Partei (DSP)
Anton Drexler was unable to stop this, but furious Hitler manage to end mutiny and become leader of DAP.

With out Hitler DAP would have dissolve into DSP, who it self dissolve in 1922 do lack of success...
 

marathag

Banned
With out Hitler DAP would have dissolve into DSP, who it self dissolve in 1922 do lack of success...
But there were a lot of small parties like that, the planned Nazi-DVFP merger that brings in Ludendorff and such sooner, rather thannfalling apart over AH objections to it.
There was going to a Volkish antisemitic right wing group with ties the military sooner or later, with or without AH and his oratory skills, and would grow to oppose the Socialist and Communists Parties that were on the rise.

Extremism begets more Extremists.

Could even be more of a Right-wing Junta, like the Black Reichswehr of the early '20s.
 
Until 1929/30 the NASDAP was quite fringe party (though other rightish outliers were even 'fringier' ... IOTL). It were the efeects of the partys re- and almost neworganization begun after 1916 by Gregor Strasser that made the stunning succsess of 9130 possible. ... together with a damn awful lot of other things going down the pipe for the Brüning goverment :
first and for all : the Great Depression with asll its consequences globally as well as for germany​
the - from todays pov - wrong countering : austerity policy (far from only a german phenomenon at this time)​
the 'mishap' for the planned autro-german custom-union
But you should remember that Brüning didn't attempt to obtain a customs union between Germany and Austria until 1931, after the 1930 election.
DNVP ? ... don't understand why so many people keep on hitting on that dead horse.
The DNVP plummeted from its alltime hiegh of just over 20% at the 2nd election of 1914 over just above 14% in 1928 to the abysmal 7.03 % of voters share in 1930 ... and never recovered above 8.66 %.
ITTL it might ... stabilize somewhere around 10-12 (if lucky) percent at best. They were a spent force having left and busted the 2. Marx goverment in summer 1928 just after having won their alltime high on voters share.
Yeah, people tend to overestimate the DNVP. The conflicts of interest were just too overwhelming for the attempt to transform the DNVP into a large nationalist-conservative party to succeed, and the DNVP was already splintering before the 1930 election. Maybe they wouldn't lose over half of its voter share in the 1930 election without Hitler, but they'd probably still lose a few percent of its voter share, and it's unlikely that the DNVP could regain its 1924 voter share in the 1930s.
But there were a lot of small parties like that, the planned Nazi-DVFP merger that brings in Ludendorff and such sooner, rather thannfalling apart over AH objections to it.
Didn't Ludendorff do really poorly in the 1925 presidential election (only getting 1.1% of the vote)? And wasn't he adopting some very strange ideas afterwards (primarily through the influence of his second wife, Mathilde von Kemnitz)?

BTW @Salvador79, got any thoughts on how the 1930 election could play out without Hitler?
 

marathag

Banned
Didn't Ludendorff do really poorly in the 1925 presidential election (only getting 1.1% of the vote)? And wasn't he adopting some very strange ideas afterwards (primarily through the influence of his second wife, Mathilde von Kemnitz)?
Yes and Yes. He went full tinfoil hat.
Never go full hat.
His name brings in supporters, but he could never be top on the ticket
 
BTW @Salvador79, got any thoughts on how the 1930 election could play out without Hitler?
Hm.

You know, I am always saying that the rise of the NSDAP happened in the void left behind by the collapse of the bourgeois parties. That void could have been averted / filled by many different options, from an earlier re-invention of Christian confessional parties into modern Christian Democracy over a renewed liberalism (like @Hohensaufen is preparing it in his Stresemann SI TL) to various kinds of populism. Even an earlier moderating SPD could have absorbed a good share of it if it had a credible, inclusive national project for wealth for everyone going forward.

But if the only divergence is Hitler dying in WW1, then I think we will much rather see a real ideological void there for a while until modern solutions to the Great Depression will be introduced by someone, and that someone and his party will probably rule for a long time.

As others have noted before, I think the DNVP is the least likely to ever fill that role, Hugenberg or not. Not even Hugenberg and Strasser combined could pull it off, primarily because their approaches and agenda were not easily compatible. Without Hitler, Strasser might not become a party politician.. or if he does, he might try to follow the Italian Fascist model more directly. A corporatist party was something Germany didn't really have IOTL, but it could have, looking at how prominent the model was in Austria. Still, without Hitler's special talents, I doubt that this alternative would rise like the Nazis IOTL. It might steal a few percent, though.

If we assume that nothing would necessarily take on the role played by the Nazis immediately, which I think is the most plausible path, then what we have is a much slower electoral erosion of the ideologically spent bourgeois parties DVP and DDP and the similarly spent and splintering formerly aristocratic-conservative DNVP (and its splinter product DKP). Some of that erosion will go, like it did before the rise of the Nazis (and the Nazis fed on those parties), into regional or special-interest populist splinter parties, maybe increasing their share to something like 10-12 % combined. DVP and DDP would lose, but less than IOTL. 1930 losses of the SPD might go to the KPD, at least to some degree, but the KPD was too in-fighting and dogmatically Muscovite at its top to really attract a very broad electorate, either.

So, here is a sketch of how that 1930 election could go (numbers in round brackets 1928 IOTL elections, numbers in square brackets 1930 IOTL results):

SPD 26 % (29,8) [24,5]
Zentrum/BVP 15 % (15,1) ]14,8]
DNVP 11 % (14 ,3) [7,0]
KPD 15 % (10,6) [13,1]
DVP 7 % (8,7) [4,5]
DDP 4 % (4,8) [3,8]
some alternative fascist party 7 % (NSDAP: 2,6) [NSDAP: 18,3]
others 15 % (14 %) [14 %]

Hindenburg being Hindenburg, he might still let Brüning do his destructive work, but without the OTL fear of the Nazis gaining yet more ground, the Reichstag might dissolve earlier and new elections might come in 1931 already, at the peak of the economic crisis. It would see SPD and KPD make gains, and the splinter products and alt-fascists also gaining from the corpses of DNVP, DVP and DDP, but not as spectacularly as IOTL. Overall, it would be interpreted as a leftward slide, so now it would be the bourgeoisie fearing any further elections. Centre-right press (and Hugenberg, too, probably) would call of "technocratic government", but witout the intimidation of the SA, the trade unions would probably push mightily for a social-democratic government and a different, anti-Brüning approach to the crisis. All of these dilemmas would cause Hindenburg to certainly not run again in 1932. If a social democrat ran against someone from the centre-right plus, let's say for the heck of it, Strasser, with Hugenberg backing Strasser in spite of reservations, then the runoff would be that social democrat (let's say Wels) against Strasser. I would predict a victory for Wels, even though it might be a lot narrower than everyone had thought.
With a decent democratic president from 1932 onwards, the Republic never slides down into a dictatorship. Sooner or later, there would be SPD-led governments again, no stable ones, but continuations of what Weimar had been before, with chancellors changing rather frequently. And the fascist alternative would fare OK-ish in an election in 1934 or 1935. The big question is if and when and which of the bourgeois parties start their re-invention under the conditions of mass democracy first and most convincingly.
 
Unstable mess with massively disputed elections and a conservative junta, probably.
This. The DNVP isn't going to do shit, it actually tanked in the 1930's elections. It was in most parts a 'traditional' Prussian-conservative party of Junkers moaning about liberalism and daydreaming about a return to the "good old times".

The SPD will still do everything in their power to avoid any destabilization, as will the Zentrum and the DDP/DStP. I can't see the DVP surviving, it really gained most of it's popularity through Stresemann and collapsed the moment he died. The DAP or whatever the non-Hitler-NSDAP will be called could very well break through 10%, but I can't see them gaining much more - yes, Strasser was a good campaign creator and he knew which economic proposals can get votes. But he wasn't a good orator and he was seen as a quite weak person.

So I can very well see Hindenburg appointing a von Papen-like figure, who will use a pretext to announce the "self-elimination of Parliament" (as the Austrofascists did) and dissolve it without announcing new elections.
 
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