Ottonians start hereditary dynasty

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Thank you very much, this might work pretty well, actually.
I see Otto III. establishing this new feudal pyramid and the heritary monarchy in Rome, 1001 A.D.
Of course, he'll be busy putting out the fires for at least a decade afterwards.:)
 
One thing you might want to consider is the Byzantine succession. Say, Otto III has a son - preferably several, if you really want to go for uber-HRE (albeit it might end up be a bit more on the ASB side - there were certain factors I will discuss shortly).

The year 1025 is where the things start getting interesting. If Basil/Basileios II does marry and has a son (as I believe you have postulated), then the crisis in Byzantium is avoided. But let's say either Basil II does not have a son, or his son does not survive the father by too long, or the Macedonian dynasty otherwise fall from grace and die out.

This leaves us with Constantine/Konstantinos IX, Basileios' brother, who only had daughters - Zoe, who in TTL would have married Otto III (and therefore, who would not have been available in Constantinople to be married off to Konstantinos' preferred candidates for the throne), and Theodora, who was, AFAIK, both a nun, and a bit over the age where she could have been expected to bear children.

What this means is all of a sudden, any male children of Otto III will have a valid claim on the Byzantine throne. Going back to the legalities of it, technically (although this was not practically implemented) a Western/HRE Emperor had a legitimate claim on the Easter/Byzantine throne should no other claimants arise. With Zoe safely in the West, the entire mess that occurred after Konstantinos IX's death does not occur - so Romanos III Argyros and the several Michaels do not ascend to the throne.

If Otto III is really smart, and does not try to bite off more than he could chew, he will offer to support one of the Byzantine candidates instead of trying to put his son on the throne, which would not be likely to be accepted by the Byzantines, even if his son's mother and grandmother were both Byzantine, and mother was also a Porphyrogenita (princess "born in the purple", or born to the reigning monarch - technically, Konstantinos IX was considered a reigning monarch alongside his brother Basileios II all along, even if he did not actually rule by himself until 1025, or Basileios' death).

This means not only that a less-than-legitimate Byzantine candidate might be willing to make territorial and other concessions to hold on to the throne, but also that pro-HRE feelings might begin to exist in the East, where the idea that HRE are allies and not enemies may begin to take root (although it might be tempered by the bitterness over Italy, where territorial concessions are likely to take place). Finally, it may mean greater influence of Byzantine bureacracy - Otto III might pull of a Peter the Great and invite numerous Greek bureaucrats to come to Germany and Italy, settle there, and enter his civil service. This idea, while 50/50 on plausibility scale, could possibly help him build a civil service, even if it means he will probably have to fight a civil war over it. Maybe with Byzantine help, he could crush the barons - alternatively, he could find an alternate venue for the barons.

By an alternate venue, of course, I mean a much earlier alternate First Crusade... it could really help Otto cement his power while some of the more troublesome barons are fighting, and are kept in line by the Byzantines in the East. :cool:
 
Now those are nice ideas. A couple of things, numbered for better readability:
  1. I don't want to it be an uber-HRE. Historically, Hugo Capet was pretty good in getting rid of the HRE influence, and I don't see why his successors won't do this here as well (although it should take longer). They will stay close or maybe reunify, but this is a long time away (longer than I'd like to do the TL, anyway). A HRE in the 1250 frontiers which manages to remain stable would be nice, but I'd expect that at least three generations after Otto III, a total imbecile will be on the throne.
  2. Funny that you should mention the son. I though that he would be so hard-pressed (or imagines to be so) to distance himself from his "barbarian" heritage that he'd make blunder after blunder, until he is gotten rid off. An alliance instead of a simple power grab would certainly benefit both - and would pretty much work with Otto III's historical ideas of a universal christian empire (only there would be two for the different brands).
  3. The Bureocrats are a good idea which I didn't think of. What a nice trade: support for modernity. I think the Crusade could be part of a different deal: Southern Italy, which proves to be too difficult to rule while constantly battling in the east, for massive military help. Of course, that would weaken the Byzantine emperor wouldn't it? Can't do anything without help from the west.

By the way, any specialist about the slav uprisings here? Homer?
 
Kabraloth said:
Now those are nice ideas. A couple of things, numbered for better readability:
  1. I don't want to it be an uber-HRE. Historically, Hugo Capet was pretty good in getting rid of the HRE influence, and I don't see why his successors won't do this here as well (although it should take longer). They will stay close or maybe reunify, but this is a long time away (longer than I'd like to do the TL, anyway). A HRE in the 1250 frontiers which manages to remain stable would be nice, but I'd expect that at least three generations after Otto III, a total imbecile will be on the throne.
  2. Funny that you should mention the son. I though that he would be so hard-pressed (or imagines to be so) to distance himself from his "barbarian" heritage that he'd make blunder after blunder, until he is gotten rid off. An alliance instead of a simple power grab would certainly benefit both - and would pretty much work with Otto III's historical ideas of a universal christian empire (only there would be two for the different brands).
  3. The Bureocrats are a good idea which I didn't think of. What a nice trade: support for modernity. I think the Crusade could be part of a different deal: Southern Italy, which proves to be too difficult to rule while constantly battling in the east, for massive military help. Of course, that would weaken the Byzantine emperor wouldn't it? Can't do anything without help from the west.

By the way, any specialist about the slav uprisings here? Homer?

Keep in mind that before the Norman invasion (BTW, what are you planning to do about the Normans?), Southern Italy was firmly Greek in character - sometimes, it was known as "Magna Grecia" - the "Greater Greece". So, ERE will have more support there for the most part. It was not until the Norman arrival that the Byzantines lost Southern Italy for good. So, as long as there is a force to keep the Arabs out (who held Sicily briefly around that time), maybe with token HRE reinforcements, it shouldn't be too much of a problem for the Byzantines.

Speaking of Slav uprisings, any particular info you are looking for? I presume you mean Bulgars for the most part?
 
Oh. I was not aware of that. So no southern italy for the HRE, I don't think that would work with Otto III.

I meant the Slav uprising at the eastern frontier of the HRE, which afaik later gave birth to Poland. I'm not certain if that was because Otto II. lost the battle of Cap Crotone, or if there were other reasons. I hoped that an expert of this time period could shed some light into this, since if there is none or a subdued one, it could be THE focus of the HRE instead of Italy. Historically, they stopped colonizing for 200 years.
 
Kabraloth said:
Oh. I was not aware of that. So no southern italy for the HRE, I don't think that would work with Otto III.

I meant the Slav uprising at the eastern frontier of the HRE, which afaik later gave birth to Poland. I'm not certain if that was because Otto II. lost the battle of Cap Crotone, or if there were other reasons. I hoped that an expert of this time period could shed some light into this, since if there is none or a subdued one, it could be THE focus of the HRE instead of Italy. Historically, they stopped colonizing for 200 years.

So you are basically going for an earlier Drag Nach Osten?

If so, I suggest similar expansion plans as in OTL later - Prussia is a good one for that. Unfortunately, my knowledge on the Slavs is more on the Eastern and somewhat on the Southern Slavs :eek:
 
Not really earlier, just one which is not interrupted.

Do you think Zoe would be as, hm, eccentric in the HRE as she was historically?
 
Kabraloth said:
Not really earlier, just one which is not interrupted.

Do you think Zoe would be as, hm, eccentric in the HRE as she was historically?

I would call her less of an eccentric and more of someone who was thoroughly unfit to rule, and very much into life's various pleasures, that ended up in position of absolute power. If she is simply the Empress Consort, with a strong, living husband, her role is likely to be fairly limited - she would be expected to bear children and possibly see to their education, but not much more. Maybe she could lead an affair or two, that would be probably hushed over... at some point, Otto could try to send her to a convent, but he'll need to be careful as not to piss off the Byzantines with that. Maybe if a non-Macedonian Emperor comes to power, he could possibly do that with little consequence.

Another idea - if HRE DOES go for Southern Italy, then maybe one of Otto's other sons (if he has more than one), raised to be more of a Greek than a German, could be sent as a puppet king/viceroy there... maybe with an aim of him or his descendants eventually making a bid for Byzantine throne. Think Frederick II, with more of realistic claims on the Byzantine throne, able to centralize the southern Italy to an extent, and considered more of a "Greek" there. Still doesn't mean recognition in ERE, but it could possibly go a long way for HIS son to be eligible as Byzantine contender for the throne. Of course, to install him, it would require a political crisis in Constantinople, and something akin to OTL Fourth Crusade, but it is doable...

What is the situation on the schism of the Churches? I imagine Catholicism and Orthodoxy would stay much closer here, with non-entity Popes...
 
If the HRE goes for south italy, it will be way down the line. Otto II. is too enthralled in the empire and will, presumably, go east when he is not busy with Rome.

Otto III.'s universal empire in TTL will be one of the latin church - when king Stephan I. of Hungary christianizes his country, he will jump on it and dream of a reunited roman empire stretching from Spain to Mesopotamia. But he'll be too busy to keep his realm together and modernize it.
After Otto III, it is anyone's guess. What I think could happen:
"Otto IV." is even more of a dreamer than his father. He does not do much of anything. Under him, the HRE reaches OTL's 1250 border and does not expand further east (Poland has become a kingdom under his father, for territorial concessions; it rules to the east).
"Otto V." is a pragmatic person with a couple of weaknesses. He will attempt to repair the damage that his father has done and tries to keep the universal empire of his grandfather together - he deepens the bond between Byzantium and the HRE and makes steps to incorporate France, Denmark, Poland, and Hungary deeper into the imperial system (still working via appointed bishops).
"Otto VI." is one of the weaknesses of his father. A total incompetent who tries to go after southern italy because of Otto II's supposed claims. He is gotten rid of before the situation escalates, but the situation in the "vassal" states starts to escalate. The historical schism between the churches could happen here.
"Otto VII.", the former's younger brother. Starts the system of appointed emperors, where the current one will appoint his successor during his lifetime, thus ensuing that the incompetents don't rule.

I'd expect a large war against the HRE with few allies around here where the imperial system comes crashing down. I do not know where to go from here, so I will most likely stop then.
 
Another thing to remember - a Byzantine system needed a strong Emperor. It could survive a few weak or incompetent ones, especially since it was set up in such a way to where even someone of low birth, but with sufficient skill, ability, and luck, could have overtaken the throne. However, if it got many incompetent ones in a row, bad things happened, especially with the outside threats involved.

The Seljuk incursions are almost certainly going to happen - for a competent Emperor who does not have to worry about securing his rear, these will not be a problem, but for either an incompetent, or for the one who had to watch his back (OTL's Romanos IV Diogenes), it could have been a serious downfall. The question is, how does Byzantium handle the external threats - the Seljuks in the East in particular.

Also, you need to account for the Norman factor - if they are still around and move into Italy en masse, the character of Italy changes drastically. Also, if the Normans get a foothold in Southern Europe, they WILL make life difficult for the Byzantines. If the Byzantines display weakness, the Ottonians could try to move in to ostensibly "support Imperial authority" (technically, they WERE the Western Roman Empire), but practically to replace the Byzantine rule with their own. Keep in mind that alliances were maintained only for political expedience, and backstabbing between Byzantines and Germans was the order of the day during the time, even if alliances were supposedly strong.
 
Kept in mind, thank you. I will consolidate and post a refurbished TL up to where the current one is with all those points taken in mind.
And then move forward so that HRE stands for Hereditary Roman Empire. :D
 
The slavic uprising took place in 983, it began before the defeat in Cotrone, but naturally was encouraged by Otto's defeat in Cotrone to go on. The northern marks were lost for about 200 years, until Henry the Lion retook them.
In fact, these areas were of great interest for Saxon Dukes (Henry the Lion was a Saxon duke, too), and the Ottonians were Saxon Dukes. Otto I. was Duke of Frankia too, so the whole of the Eastern frontier was in his liars. Thus, it will be of great interest for the Ottonians to defeat the Slavs. And since the Slavs reestablished Paganism, this would be another reason for the emperor to retake those areas. In our timeline, Otto II. died 982 in Rome and Otto III. was only 3 years old and to young to fight
the Slavs. If Otto II. is still alive in 983 he would surely fight the Slavs.
And since he's even more powerful then OTL I think he would win.

This could mean a new increase to Ottonian Power: Otto II. is free to establish whatever regime he wants in those areas, as William the Conquerer could in England.
Since the Slav nobles led the uprising, he will probably get rid of them, so it's possible for the Ottonians to establish a throughout loyal elite in this area. The colonization of the East would
probably be even faster than in OTL.
He might found several cities on the coast: Lübeck, Schwerin, Greifswald, Stettin etc and thus beginning trade relations. In our timeline, the founding of Lübeck marked the Beginning of German Trade in the Baltic Sea, a source for additional wealth for the Ottonians.

Especially when they can destroy Haithabu, the most important trading-City in the north during the 9.th century and just north of the areas who where lost to the slavs, so one single campaign could be enough! And 1050 Haithabu was destroyed anyway, why not let Otto III. have the succes and the plunder? He could then deport the traders to Lübeck and here we have a new center of trade.
 
Thank you very much! That's really helpful. Now I will have to rewrite the earlier years, though, so no attempt today.
 
I have to say that there are very interesting ideas about the Byzantines!
Many Historians say, that the Germans never established a stable central governement because every emperor had to deal with the church and with Italy, thus loosing power in Germany itself.
An alliance with the Byzantines could prevent this (or at least decrease its effect) and even more:

1. Southern Italy in Byzantine hands and the Byzantines allied with the Ottonians would weaken the popes, which often allied with the Normans, and other Italian enemies. Thus imperial influence in Italy would be increased, giving the emperors more time to deal with German nobles.

2. The church in stronger control by the Ottonians and the Byzantines allied with them could prevent the Great Schisma, thus having great influence to the crusades and strengthening the alliance between Ottonians and Byzantinians.

3. Byzantine influence could make it more plausible to establish a strong central power and a bureaucracy, as you already stated above. Especially when Southern Italy is in place to show the success of Byzantine administration.

4. An undisputed Byzantine influence in Southern Italy would make the Byzantines stronger, thus maybe even preventing Mantzinkert.

5. An Ottonian-Byzantine Alliance could drive the Arabs out of Sicily and could prevent the Normans from conquering Southern Italy.

So why not establishing an alliance between the Two Empires? Let the Ottonians work for a "Universal Christian empire of the West" and get them some rest in Italy!
 
Hereditary Roman Empire - Incomplete Draft
Noteworthy addition and changes to the first attempt are marked in italics.

13. July 982: The battle at the Cap Colonna against the Saracens ends victorious for the empire, Abu’l Kasim falls.
Following a hunch, Otto II. insists on staying on guard and watching for enemy activities. The attack by the Saracen's reserve is beaten back handily, but Otto II. barely escapes death, as he is in the front row.
The Saracens flee back to Sicily, Otto II. adds „Romanorum Imperator Augustus“ to his titles. A reaction from Byzantium did not occur immediatly, as Emperor Basileios II. was busy strenghtening his own rule. For the time being, southern Italy is put under western imperial rule.

983: Due to his brush with death, Otto II. has his son Otto elected as German king. He also reorders some duchies and starts the integration of southern Italy into the empire.
While in Verona, Otto II. has another close brush with death - due to Malaria - but recovers before a disastrous overdose of Aloe can be applied.
The great Slav uprising demands his attention north of the alps, however, due to various crisises in Rome, he leaves Dietrich von Wettin in charge and departs.


984: The great Slav uprising, which failed to pick up after news of Otto's victory reaches the Elbe, is beaten back by the emperor in person.
After the victory, he has the so-called "Lex Slavia" written down, which offers position and titles to slav nobles who convert to christianity, but demand that their oathes to fealty are given not only to their new lords, but to the emperor as well. This leads to minor unrest in Bavaria and Francia, which is however quickly put down, after Otto promises that no Frankish noble will be asked such an oath.

Unrest in souther Italy forces Otto to start another campaign soon enough. During his absence, the roman patrician Crescentius I. Nomentanus manages to overthrow pope John XIV., all the while the estern frontier of the Empire is reestablished. Dietrich von Wettin is forced to retreat to Verona, after surviving several assasination attempts with various poisons.

985: To secure his position in Constantinople, Basileios II. has to find a way to regain the "festering wound" of the lost Italian possessions to the Westerners. Since he cannot use his military powers (due to the army being in reorganisation and too many internal problems), he offers Otto II. silent approval of the officially unrecognized title of Roman Emperor, help with calming Rome, and the hand of a princess for his son. Otto, who is currently dealing with the Romancrisis, agrees. To strenghten the ties further, Basileios marries Otto's daughter Adelheid.
Meanwhile, the coup of Crescentius has been overcome, he himself is beheaded on behalf of the emperor, and pope John is reinstated. Otto departs northwards, back to German lands, as the nobles are becoming rebellious again due to the - as of yet still minor - influx of Slav nobility.

986: Otto II. reasserts full Imperial control in the Reichstag of Aachen. He also starts mounting a campaign against the West Frankish kingdom, where king Lothar I. was putting the old ally and follower of Otto I., Adalbero of Reims on trial for high treason.
Basileious II. marries Otto's daughter (who is 19 at the time) and solidifies his rule after retaking southern Italy. He now starts setting his eyes on his most dangerous outside enemies: the Bulgars. But for now, he is busy pacifying his new territory and keeping the patricians in check.

987: After Lothar I. has been killed by Hugo Capet to save Adalbero, Otto II. puts Hugo Capet on the West Frankish Throne after he swears fealty to him (the western electors don't dare to stand up against an emperor who has so far successfully defeated everyone who stood against him). Louis V. is sent into a cloister. The Western/Eastern Frankish alliance that Adalbero and Otto favour is slowly progressing, as the Emperor's ability to constitue bishops as he desires.

988: Basileious II. starts his campaign against the Bulgars.
The roman patricians under Johannes I. Crescentius enthrone John XV. as pope, against the wishes of Otto, who in turn starts mounting yet another Italian campaign. Respect before the pope reaches an all-time low and the nobles start looking towards the emperor as both worldly and spiritual ruler.

989: After settling some more internal matters, Otto II. and a large army move towards Rome. Otto's feelings by now could be summed up by "rabid rage". He enters Rome in mid June. Within two months, the whole conspiracy has been reduced to rubble, the patricians are beheaded as well as the pope. Otto II. declares that from now on the pope will "for his own safety" be traveling with the emperor as his personal advisor, but without any worldly power.
With Rome cowed, the princes at home in awe, and the Western Franks and Byzantines both not in the position to do anything about it, this command goes by and large unchallanged.

990: Otto spends most of the time between Rome and Verona.
Meanwhile, Basileios is busy fighting Bulgars. His niece Zoe has been seen to adequate education for her future role as western empress, and his wife is pregnant. While the public assumes that it happend when he was home during his campaigns, the rumor mill (and he himself in his darker hours) believes that a member of her personal guard is actually the father.

991: Begin of the "peace years" (despite unrest spreading in northern Italy and in Lotharingia. Johannes Philagathos, a greek advisor to Otto II's wife Theophanu, begins educating the young king Otto in politics and history, more thoroughly than possible in previous years.
 

ninebucks

Banned
Maybe something happens, a prolonged war that makes the nobles rally around the strong emperor... more successful Hungarians and Vikings?

This is a feudal system, in times of threat Vassals take it upon themselves to repel the threat. The central polity has less power to co-ordinate the war effort the more threat is inflicted - it is only really useful in co-ordinating peace, a prolonged war would shatter the empire, not unite it.

Besides, on a technical note, it was only the title of King of Germany that was available for giving away, 'Holy Roman Emperor' is a title bestowed by the Pope... granted the King of Germans could force the Pope, but the perogative remained.
 
Hereditary Roman Empire - Incomplete Draft
Noteworthy addition and changes to the first attempt are marked in italics.
Respect before the pope reaches an all-time low and the nobles start looking towards the emperor as both worldly and spiritual ruler.

Sounds a bit like the Russian Tsar
 
What if the ottonians managed to do away with the election process and made the title of holy roman emperor hereditary? What would be a good point for this to happen? What are the results? Does germany screw around with italy or does the empire remain german and evolve into a kingdom later? Will the emperor be able to centralize the empire eventually, or will we just end up with the powerful nobles struggling with the emperor for authority?

There are pluses and minuses. Since most of the HR Emperor's power was based upon the strength of his personal estates, making the throne hereditary could lead to a powerless figurehead if the Ottonians lost their house's intrinsic power. If they managed to leverage their hereditary status and position to really dominate the empire, the result could be different.
 
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