How's the Start?


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You have Russia in the middle, as the ruler of the autonomus Poland.

The ottomans are in a middle of structural reforms - totally needed to at least keep up with the main powers. Why the islamic ottomans would get the catholic polish on their side? I dont find a explicit reason to do so.

However, maybe the romanians can close positions, as they are in good terms with ottomans since the bulgarian war. Even the ottoman jews, playing the ancestry card with polish jews, can play a big role on this.

But i dont see this happening in the short - middle term.
 
Legit are there any tls on here where russia still rules finland, baltics and empire territories and doesn't lose them. In 40s years it will be impossible for russia to lose any of them without nukes. No one will be able to match them. First tl where 7 days to the rhine is real.

You have Russia in the middle, as the ruler of the autonomus Poland.

The ottomans are in a middle of structural reforms - totally needed to at least keep up with the main powers. Why the islamic ottomans would get the catholic polish on their side? I dont find a explicit reason to do so.

However, maybe the romanians can close positions, as they are in good terms with ottomans since the bulgarian war. Even the ottoman jews, playing the ancestry card with polish jews, can play a big role on this.

But i dont see this happening in the short - middle term.
Thats my thinking later on more long term. You never know russia may turn its gaze down south. If anything pan-slavism is stronger than ever.
 
I got a question how does the make up of the military look now in regard to its ethnic groups, arabs, jews, greeks, balkan muslim and kurds. Have they entered the officer corps yet?
 
The future certainly looks bleak for Germany, with Bavaria's secession the very idea of Germany is in peril and since I doubt the next war is going to go any better for them (if anything it seems likely it'll go even worse with Russia not having the Soviets to derail their OTL trajectory) it seems we'll see an even more diminished Germany than OTL.
At this point Allies might just forced break Germany up into several republic after TTL WW2.
 
Chapter 31: The Drama Known as Peace
Chapter 31: The Drama Known as Peace

***

“The war had ended in the Austro-Hungarian Empire, but all was not at peace. Franz II was a mixture of democratic and autocratic ideals, and this clash of ideals often led to stalemate in the government, unsure on what they needed to do. However, everyone in the Austro-Hungarian Empire, knew that reform was needed. Franz II knew this. Austrian Minister-President, Heinrich Lammasch knew this, and Hungarian Prime Minister, Sandor Wekerle, also knew this. The days of feudal allegiance were over, and the Hungarians were rioting on the streets asking Budapest for universal male suffrage that was granted in the Austrian half of the empire. In Austria, people were rioting hoping to pass pro-worker laws in the empire. Whilst the House of Habsburg was still widely supported, as many passed the blame onto the politicians rather than the ruling dynasty, there was no telling when that fixture could change.

On April 25, 1917, Franz II called a meeting of the House of Habsburg and the Hungarian and Austrian governments in Kosice, to find a proper solution to the problems plaguing the Austro-Hungarian Empire. The Kosice Conference would be a very consequential meeting, one that arguably shaped Europe for the next century. During the conference, Franz II lambasted the Hungarian government, and asked them what they had in mind to end the pro-suffrage riots in Hungary. Wekerle, privately was in favor of expanded suffrage in Hungary, as he was the first and only Hungarian commoner to become Prime Minister, however his backers were all Hungarian magnates and expanding suffrage would end his political career. He would tell the emperor that many in the government was in favor of the universal male suffrage question, however the influence of the magnates made that impossible. A poke and see approach would need to be taken in his opinion.

Franz II was exasperated by this and moved onto the Austrian half of the empire. Austrian Minister-President, Heinrich Lammasch presented the emperor with an entire list of social reforms. Franz II was not a pro-leftist monarch like his successor, however nonetheless, he accepted the laws, and told Lammasch to take them to the Cisleithanian Legislature for passage of the proposal social worker’s bills. The bills included raising the minimum wage, and keeping a total working hours of 8 hours.

Meanwhile the Croatian National Councilors, led by President Dr. Aleksander Horvat, with prominent members of the Dalmatian Parliament and Croatia-Slavonia Parliament such as Ivo Frank, Josip Pazman and prominent generals like Lukas Snjaric, Mihael Mihalijevic and Svetozar Borevic presented the Emperor with the opinion of establishing a third crown in the empire. The Lands of Zvonimir, or an Illyrian Crown, that would encompass Croatia-Slavonia, Dalmatia and Bosnia-Herzegovina, for the South Slavs. With plebiscites to take place in Austrian Slovenia regarding the issue of joining the Southern Slav Crown. Franz II was a well known trialism supporter, and he was enthusiastic about the proposal, but many in the Hungarian government protested the move. The Landowners and Magnates present in the meeting were not in favor of such a move.

Franz II argued that the issue of the political status of Bosnia and Herzegovina would be ended by the creation of a third crown, and the simmering discontent against Hungarian rule from the Slavs would be suppressed. The Hungarians vehemently disagreed. Many in the Hungarian cabinet were in fact in favor of such reforms, but they knew that the Magnates would never accept such a radical change, and that the country would be swept into civil war if Franz II used his constitutional powers to bypass the Hungarian Cabinet and pass the laws.

The Hungarian Prime Minister was pressured by Franz II to pass the legislation for a third crown in the Austro-Hungarian Empire. The Hungarian Cabinet reluctantly signed the legislation in favor of trialism. This was mainly a result of the fact that Wekerle’s cabinet was filled with reformists [1], but the fact remained that everyone knew that the declaration of trialism would be met with anger in the Hungarian nobility, even if the populace supported it, which many of them did.

It was here, that Heinrich Lammasch came in. An old and wily politician with the cunning to back it up [2], he knew what to do. He told Franz II to freeze the monetary bank accounts of the Hungarian Magnates temporarily after the news of the trialism got out. After that, if the Magnates revolted, the accounts could be seized and nationalized. Without money, the Magnate revolt would be penniless and not worth the paper it would be declared on. Franz II liked the idea, and accepted the move.

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Heinrich Lammasch.

The final two topics that were discussed between April 26 and 28 were the issues of centralization and ethnic representation. Franz II pushed for a series of United Elections to take place throughout the empire, whilst local diet elections would also take place. He also pushed for a central position of Chancellor and Central Cabinet to be formed as well. He pointed out that the early dysfunction between the Cisleithanian and Transleithanian government came due to the separation of governments. There was no rebuttal to this point. It was true after all.

Ironically the Hungarian Magnates were supporters of unified elections as well, and the Hungarian Cabinet was in favor of unified elections throughout the empire as well. Finally the idea of a National Autonomy Law was floated throughout the meeting. The National Autonomy Law had been introduced to the Austrian Parliament in 1904, but it had been narrowly voted down. Its basic idea was described by Social Democrat Karl Renner as:-

“Every member of a national group to have the right to their own religion and language, both in education and daily use, whilst maintaining the identity of remaining in the Empire.”

For this, the politicians turned to the Ottoman Empire for inspiration. A multiethnic empire, the Ottomans were widely free of ethnic political parties, unlike Austria-Hungary. A lot of ethnic political parties existed in the Ottoman Empire, however few of them actually managed to make gains in national elections and they were only present on the fringes of local level elections. The Greek Nationalist Party (GNP) which had been so strong from 1876 to 1907 was basically dead in the Ottoman Empire, and the Bulgarian Social Democratic Party and Armenakan Parties, which were one separatist parties, in the Ottoman Empire had changed their political focus from separatism to regionalism instead. Archduke Karl, and Franz II supported the implementation of Ottoman like reforms, allowing the nationalities of the empire total freedom, however making them being encompassed under the overall identity of being a citizen of the Habsburg Empire. Karl was even more radical than Franz II and pushed for full federalization of the empire, however that would be too radical a change, and was shot down.

On April 29, the Kosice Conference ended, and the Hungarian and Austrian cabinet got to work. On May 4, the Kingdom of Illyria was proclaimed in Zagreb. The Austro-Hungarian Empire was declared to be the Empire of Danubia, whilst the Empire of Austria, Kingdom of Hungary and Kingdom of Illyria were declared the subnational kingdoms of the empire. Danubia had been a proposed name for the empire since 1881, and Franz II took up the name. [3]

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The new Flag of the Empire of Danubia.

Like many had suspected, the Hungarian Magnates revolted immediately. The government froze all of their monetary accounts and nationalized their wealth and took their riches into the Imperial Treasury filling up their coffers by a massive amount. Most of the Hungarian magnates immediately found themselves broke and destitute. Many tried to fight back against this new law, however the reformist train was streaming ahead full steam. On May 5, the government called for new elections for the new empire to take place on May 29, 1915.

The reformist mood of the empire was celebrated throughout the empire. However a good few were not happy. The German nationalists in the empire were far from happy. At the Battle of Aalst, one Adolf Hitler was wounded in the left thigh when a shell exploded in his dugout in the German Army. He was sent to Bavaria for treatment in a hospital. However he only managed to recover after the armistice was signed. At the same time, the general anarchy in Germany forced him to move into his homeland of Austria. A fervent German nationalist, the man was horrified by the fact that the Empire was going to enfranchise the Slavs and Latins of the Empire, a group of people whom according to Hitler’s friends, were found to be distasteful for Hitler and were viewed as subpar humans. He was also angry that the Habsburg Empire had thrown in the towel and blamed the German defeat in the war towards Austria, or more specifically Franz II. He conspired with German Nationalist organizations in the Austro-Hungarian Empire. On May 21, Franz II took a ride out in Vienna with his wife, Sophie Chotek, and was cheered on by the Viennese crowd, Franz II had become incredibly popular for allowing the social laws to pass.

The imperial car stopped, and he stepped out to meet with the common people near Kaisermulhen Square. There, he was giving the public smiles and autographs that monarchs often did during this era, and was shaking hands with prominent commoners, of course with his bodyguards standing tersely behind him. As the meeting ended, he got up and after a small wave entered his car again. But before the car could move, three shots were heard, and the Emperor of Danubia fell down dead. Hitler had been in the crowd, and he shot the Emperor.

Pandemonium ensued. Adolf Hitler tried to escape, however the Austrian bodyguards weren’t trained by the best for nothing and they captured him. But Hitler managed to temporarily escape from his captors, before he was captured by the Viennese crowd. He was disarmed and handed to the Viennese police. The country was extremely angry. Franz II had proven himself to be a very popular monarch and his death was a blow to the empire. Archduke Karl immediately ascended to the throne as Karl I and confirmed that the elections of May 29 were not to be postponed, however the security would be doubled. Hitler was sentenced to death for his assassination and he was killed in a private execution in Vienna Prison.

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During the subsequent elections held in the ending days of May, The Christian Social Party under Prince Louis of Lichtenstein managed to gain plurality of the seats in the new Danubian Imperial Diet, and formed a new government as Prince Louis became the first Chancellor of Danubia.”

Excerpts from The Habsburg Empire: How to Run a Modern Empire.

***

“The growth of the Ottoman Industrial capacity allowed the common folk of the country to invest into the growing armament industry of the country. Till now the Ottoman’s armament industries were almost all state owned and nationalized, and without private companies, many feared that the country would have no means of competition in the country in regards to the Armament industry. They needn’t have worried that much. In May 28, 1917, a group of aviation conglomerates in the Ottoman Empire, mainly filled up with Armenian and Greek industrial giants in the empire, formed the Caelum Armament Company. Caelum became one of the first armament company throughout the Ottoman Empire that was privately, and was extremely successful. It would become known as the Vickers Company of the Ottoman Empire.

Meanwhile in the empire, the country continued to slowly develop its aerial industry. The aerial section of warfare and the Ottoman investment in the sector was vindicated by the fact that Aerial warfare had been so useful in the Balkan War, and the fact that it had been overwhelmingly useful in the Great War as well. The Ottomans had around 170 warplanes in service in June 1917, and the 1917 Airforce Act was passed through the Ottoman Chamber of Deputies. The Ottoman Air Corps was de-established and its place, the Ottoman Airforce was formed. The Ottoman Airforce was given its own commission in the Ministry of War, and the Act also envisioned an Ottoman Airforce that was 500 strong in 1925. The act called for a total of 350 fighters and 150 bombers to be a part of the Airforce. It also allocated a good amount of money for the creation and establishment of three new aviation campuses and schools in the country.

The empire also continued to construct new prototypes for aerial construction to meet its own goals of having an airforce that was 500 strong in 1925. The first was fighter development. The Ottomans were in need for a new and more modern fighter rather than the ones they had with them currently. For the fighters, the Ottomans decided to build a two seat fighter biplane A new model called the Aslan Bir (Lion 1) was constructed by the Air Commission and members of the Caelum Aviation Branch. The Aslan Bir was fitted with Hispano-Suiza engines as well as indigenously produced Salonika 150 kW Plants as its main engines. The main characteristics of the Aslan Bir was the fact that it had a crew of 2 and had 2 engines, Its length was around 8.69 meters and the wingspan of the plane was 10.97 meters long. The height of the plane was also 2.92 meters and the wing area was around 30.24 square meters. It had an empty weight of 769 kilograms and gross weight of around 1,216 kilograms. The performance of the plane wasn’t bad either. It had a maximum speed of 183 kilometers per hour and a cruise speed of 153 kilometers per hour. It had an endurance of around 4 hours and 1 7.7 mm Vickers Machine Gun and another 7.7 Caelum Machine Gun as its main armaments. For the time, the Aslan Bir was a formidable fighter plane.

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The Aslan Bir.

The second plane design was that of a bomber. The Ottomans were weak in their bomber fleet, and knew about this. They needed to create a strong bomber arm if they wanted to continue to use a combined arms approach to warfare. For this, the government and Caelum Company came up with the idea of the warplane known as Volant I.

Volant I was a long range bomber built by Caelum and the Air Commission. Operational use of the Volant I demonstrated that the incorporation of the fuel tanks into engine nacelles was a mistake in the aerial fuel. In response, the aeronautical engineers produced new housing areas in a plane that housed fuel tanks inside the fuselage. The smaller engine nacelles were mounted on struts above the lower wing. The pilot seat was offset to port, with fuel tanks immediately behind. This blocked the connecting walkway that previously on earlier bombers allowed crew members to move between the three gun stations. All bombs were carried externally in this warplane. It had a total crew of 4, and was 12.36 meters long and its wingspan was 23.7 meters. It had a height of 4.3 meters and had a wing area of 89.5 square meters. It had an empty weight of 2740 kilograms and gross weight of 3975 kilograms. It had two 6 cylinder water cooled in line piston engines which had a total horsepower of 260 hp each. It had a total speed of around 140 kilometers per hour and a range of 840 kilometers. It could carry a total of 14 x 25 kg bombs and held an armament of 3 machine guns as well.

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The Volant I.

All in all the Volant I was a powerful bomber for this era. Both the Volant I and Aslan Bir received permission for streamlined production and would form the backbone of the Ottoman Airforce for the first half of the Interwar Era.”

Excerpts from Ottoman Aeronautics: Humble Origins

***

“The Ottoman Empire had ever since 1910 positioned itself as a socially inclusive and tolerant empire, trying to revive the pre-1820 years, when the Ottomans were regarded as a very tolerant empire, unlike the image that followed in the 1830s and 40s until 1909, when the Ottoman Empire became a byword for intolerance. Whilst the Ottomans were largely successful in their tolerant policy, social stigmas started to flare up in the empire as the Jews continued to flee their persecution in Russia, France and Spain into the Ottoman Empire. In the Ottoman Empire, Greeks, Armenian and Christian Syrians were called out as the most anti-semitic ethnic groups in the Ottoman Empire.

The American Presbyterian Missionary H. H. Jessup who stayed in Ottoman Lebanon from for around fifty years, said about the Jews in the Ottoman Empire:

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H. H. Jessup.

“They are hated intensely by many sects, though far less than what they faced in Europe. But perhaps the greatest anti-semites of the Empire of Osman were the Greeks and Latins. In the gradations of oriental cursing, it is tolerably reasonable to call a man a donkey, somewhat severe to call him a dog, contemptuous to call him a swine and withering to the last degree I the Latin and Greek communities of the Middle East to call him a Jew. The animosity of the Orthodox Christians and Middle Eastern Christians and the Jews is most relentless and unreasoning. They believe that Jews kill Christian children every year at the Passover and mingle with their blood in the Passover bread. Almost every year in the spring, this senseless charge is brought against the Jews. Despite the best efforts of the central government, Jews of Beirut and Damascus are obliged to sometime pay heavy blackmail every year to the Greek and Latin ‘lewd fellows of the baser sort’ who threaten to raise a mob against them for killing Christian children…….and not only do they regard them as the children of hell, but would rejoice to send them there if they could.” – H. H. Jessup [4]

Ironically tolerance towards Jews in the Ottoman Empire came from the Turkish and Arabic groups, groups that the western world had deemed barbarians against Jews many a times. In 1840, thousands of Damascus Jews were killed by the Greek, Latin and Bulgarian community there, and the survivors of the Damascus Pogrom, were all shielded by the Arabian and Turkish communities of the city.

In the middle of 1917, as around 10,000 Jewish immigrants arrived to the Ottoman Empire as a part of the Ottomans pro-Jewish stance, mainly from France, Spain, Portugal, Russia and Belgium, the Greek and Latin community of Syria rioted and destroyed several Jewish stores in the area. Ahmed Riza sent a declaration the next day on July 27, proclaiming,

“…….The Sultan, our master and father to us all, has come us as in the midst of a family whose joys are his joys and sorrows are his sorrows. He knows all the obligations that divine Providence has imposed on him……you should not doubt for an instance his justice. Muslims, Christians and Jews, you are all subjects of the same Emperor. Children of the same father. If there are oppressed among you, it is the intention of His Majesty that the laws safeguarding life, honor and property of all subjects be strictly observed throughout the empire. Muslims or Christians or Jews, rich or poor, civil, military, or religious officials, all Ottoman subjects should have full confidence in the sovereign of the nation, and know that everyone is equal in the eyes of the Sultan…….”

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Jewish Immigrants coming to the Ottoman Empire.

The Declaration of July 27th, 1917 basically told the empire once again that everyone was equal regardless of faith, and despite the polite and gentle tone of the declaration, everyone smart enough knew that it held a quiet threat. A threat of imprisonment if freedom of religion was not followed. Death, if immigrants were killed without committing any crime. The anti-semite crowds in Syria were soon dispersed.

The Ottomans were by and large conciliatory with its Greek minority, who formed the third largest group in the Ottoman Empire, however much to their headache the Ottomans found that the Greeks were the most anti-Semitic ethnic groups of the Ottoman Empire. [5] In Greek areas of the empire, riots against the Jewish immigration, instigated by religious foundations continued to happen. The leader of the Ashkenazi community in Rhodes, complained to the President of the Ottoman Jewish Front Organization (OJFO), Emmanuel Effendi, who was also a member of the Ottoman Parliament saying,


“The fanatic Greeks of this island, as of other places in Thrace, have the habit of contrary to the real spirit of Christianity, making a replica of Judas Iscariote, and of burning it on the Holy Saturday. They construct a wooden figure, cover it with clothing which they claim is that of ancient jews and they burn it publically in the middle of a multitude of the ignorant and the fanatic. When Turkish or Arab authorities are present, these events are dispersed quickly and many offenders are taken to prison but in the absence of these authorities, Greek authorities are more than willing to turn a blind eye to such events. It often happens that this multitude already excited by tales of the suffering of Christ that has been made to them at Churches, is exulted at the appearance of the execution of he who is supposed to have betrayed Christ, and works up a great anger against Jews. For a long time we have kept our heads down, knowing each year that the Hellenes will cut off the heads and arms of the corpses in our cemetery and will burn them with great solemnity. We have made no complaints to the central government, despite their obvious suspicions, in order to not create differences between the two communities. But this audacious madness of these fanatics have increased with the recent rise of Jewish immigration. We ourselves see the flames and hear the cries of hatred and vengeance against the Jews.” [6]

This situation of affairs simply could not be allowed to stand. On August 26, 1917, the Ottoman government met and the Chamber of Deputies condemned the anti-semitic attacks going on in Damascus and Thrace, as well as Rhodes. The government also passed the Act of the Jews, 1917 which formally made Anti-Semitism a crime. Any acts of Anti-Semitism then became an offense against the state. On august 29 itself, around 400 Anti-Semites were arrested and sentenced to prison by the government, of which 230 were Greeks, 90 were Armenians and the latter were a hodgepodge of other nationalities within the empire.

It was a harsh decision on part of the Ottoman Empire, but the Ottomans were going to stick to their decision about being tolerant. And that meant that through both education, and judicial means, the Ottomans were going to make their populace open minded.”

Excerpts from The Jews of the Ottoman Empire: The Tolerant Sultans.

***

“Immediately post the Great War, the Ottomans were in a powerful position. The British had invested heavily in Ottoman industries to meet their own weapon demands, and Ottoman exports into the British Empire had increased by a total of 40% throughout the Great War. Sweden and the Ottomans became the prime beneficiaries of British investment during the Great War. The French had also invested a good amount in the Ottoman Empire, and now the Ottomans, in an ironic twist held a good amount of debt in their hands that the western powers of Paris and London owed to the Ottoman government.

The Ottomans used this opportunity to open up new debt conferences with Britain and France, negotiating to decrease the amount of debt that the Ottomans owed to the Ottoman Public Debt Administration on part of the British and French. The British and the French refused to subsume the Ottoman debts in return of waiving of British and French debts to the Ottoman Empire, however both sides agreed to amenable reduction of debts with one another. With this done, the Ottomans also turned to other economic matters at hand.

Social Hierarchies of the Ottoman Economic Expansion

During the years of Ottoman economic expansion, the growth of Ottoman economics benefitted four groups in varying degrees. The peasant households who were located near industrial centers were able to organize the production and transportation of their crops without being dependent on third parties. By doing so they managed to take advantage of the favorable conditions in the export markets in the country. The nomadic tribes who owned and operation camel caravans in the country also benefitted from the expansion of production and exports. At the initial stages of the boom, the railroads still hadn’t penetrated into the rural parts of the country, though roads were built, and the camel’s caravans managed to earn good money by transporting goods and acting as agents for the rural villages of the Ottoman Empire. The third group who saw an increase in their income during this time were the workers of the empire. Money wages in the Ottoman Empire increased by about 90% during 1911 – 1917 and the growth was especially intense during the Italo-Ottoman War and the Balkan War. The group that benefitted most however, were the ethnic minorities of the empire, according to data, which show that the ethnic minorities of the empire managed to grow their economic scope within the empire most during the industrial expansion of the Ottoman Empire.

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Ottoman Traders in Jeddah.

Excerpts from ‘An Economical History: The Ottomans’

***

“On June 23, Tsar Nicholas II, on the prodding and enforcement of the Duma, declared the Manifesto of the Polish Nation. It was a proclamation that declared the restoration of Congress Poland. The Russian government under Tsar Nicholas II and Sergey Muromtsev had searched for a proper Polish government to be formed among Polish loyalists in the empire, and they managed to take the offer of Premiership to the Russophone Polish Nationalist Roman Dmowski [7]. Dmowski accepted the offer, and agreed to form the first government of the Congress Polish government.

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Roman Dmowski

On July 31, a royal procession took place in Warsaw, with Tsar Nicholas II being crowned as Mikolaja II of Poland, (Mikolaja is Nicholas in Polish) and he solemnly swore to uphold the laws and regulations of Poland. Great celebrations broke out throughout Poland as the Russian conservatives and reactionaries, as well as the Germans looked on with alarm at the proceedings.

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Ignacy Jan Paderewski

The first polish government was formed, and Roman Dwomski became the first Polish Premier of Congress Poland, whilst Dwomski chose Ignacy Jan Paderewski to be the Vice-Premier of Congress Poland. Whilst handing over power to Poland had been a good idea, and provided rapprochement between the Poles and Russians, many minorities in the Russian Empire, most especially the Finns and Caucasians began to simmer in discontent, wanting the same concessions given to Poland. It would set the stage of the politics of Russia during the interwar era.”

Introduction of ‘Russian Politics in the Interwar Era: A History’.

***

---

[1] – This is otl. Wekerle was a commoner and his entire cabinet was filled with reformists, noble and commoner alike.

[2] – this guy is buried in history, but he really was actually a very wily and cunning politician. He single handedly prevented the annexation of all of Tyrol into Italy otl.

[3] – the name Danubia for the Austrian Empire was proposed first in 1819 actually but it was only seriously proposed first in 1881. Franz Ferdinand otl was a supporter of the name.

[4] – This is a real quote from OTL.

[5] – According to Fall of the Ottomans and the Jews of the Ottoman Empire and the Turkish Republic by Stanford Shaw, this is true. The Greeks, with the Armenians trailing behind were the most Anti-Semitic groups of the Ottoman Empire whilst ironically, the Turkish, Arabs and Lebanites were the most tolerant in the empire.

[6] - this is an otl quote as well.

[7] – He was more Russian Friendly than Russophone, but that’s the best you’re going to get in Russian Poland.

***
 
Changes in Poland and Austria, whilst the ottomans continue to go on ahead, socially and economically as well as militarily. Thoughts?
 
I have a feeling Franz might end up getting assassinated ittl, considering that Karl still becomes Kaiser, meaning Franz doesn't have kids. This time it'll be the Hungarian nobles, which would ironically end up killing their movement.
Franz Ferdinand had a morganatic marriage which discounted his children from succession. Karl is his heir.
 
I'm displeased at what happened to Germany (although that's just my German ancestry speaking), hopefully Russia and France can go through some difficulties to balance things out in the future (I'm sure the Ottomans would love to get Tunisia, and territories in the Caucasus)?
Like everytime in Russian history russia will have russian troubles. France will inevitably have problems in their new german lands.
Now that the irrational part of me is done, the Ottomans seem to have benefited the most out of all the Great Powers. They suffered the fewest casualties (although they did fight in a separate war); were able to strengthen themselves internally and enact several long-term, far-reaching reforms; and could be well placed to acquire some of the share of the global economy that Germany and Italy held prior to the Great War.
Indeed.
One other thing i don't quite understand is the Suleiman-class battlecruiser's design. Why did the Ottoman Navy go with a design that only has 4 main guns, even though they are of 380mm caliber, and merely 76mm of main belt armor (which is less than the Invincibles and Indefatigables in British service with 152mm belt armor that were built in the late 1900s/early 1910s? I guess it could be chalked up to inexperience with capital ship design, but to me it seems more logical for a better protected ship to be constructed as the other naval powers would have built (or would be building) capital ships with increasingly heavier armaments.

The real world equivalent of the Suleiman-class, the Courageous-class, were built to get around wartime limitations on capital ship construction imposed on the Royal Navy by being "large light cruisers", effectively capital ships in disguise (albeit drastically under-protected).

A design that has better armor belt protection, although not to the extent of a battleship (battlecruisers need to keep their speed), perhaps around 203-254mm (8-10 in) of belt armor might be better suited to combat against potential rivals (ie Russia, Italy, France ). Also having only 2 main gun turrets (1 fore and 1 aft) with 229mm of armour (which could be penetrated rather easily by capital ship grade shells) creates a risk of half of the vessels firepower being lost due to turret failure, destruction etc, in combat. Perhaps having 3 or 4 twin turrets to better distribute main battery fire, creating less of a risk of turret loss curbing available firepower, might be better?

(I want to emphasise that I am in no way, nor do I intend, to attack anyone in this thread, including the author. This timeline is well written and I very much enjoy it, I am just somewhat enthusiastic about the naval side of things and seeing how the Ottomans would have developed that aspect of their military had they survived. I understand that people could read this post and perceive my tone and intentions as hostile, when I don't intend them to be such).
The courageous is a bad inspiration to draw from yes, I'm aware, but for a big warship like a battlecruiser, the Courageous is within building capacity of the Ottomans for now. The Ottomans still have a small professional manpower problem after all.
 
I wonder if relations between the Ottomans and the Austrians would change after the Great War despite a traditional enmity between the two. If the Austrian monarchy intends on reforms, they should realize that Hungary is a dead weight and take almost any opportunity to cut them off.
The Ottomans and Austrians had good relations since 1881 though
 
Is it ASB if Austria is able to unify with Bavaria?
Yeah, pretty much. Bavaria is an independent Kingdom, they were under Germany because that's how Germany worked, with subnational monarchies under the overall German one. Austria is a single Monarchy. Bavaria joining Austria means Ruprecht is losing his crown for no reason. They can stay close allies without having to join. Lichtenstein was not a part of A-H after all.
Economical Unification? Thats possible.
Political unification? @Gokbay has the right of it.
 
Reasonably simple actually for 1914 gold standard ates and the amounts in the peace treaties were all using these.

French, Swiss and Belgian franc, Italian lire, Greek drachma, Bulgarian leva, Romanian lei, Serb dinar and some Latin Americans were all the same, thanks Latin Monetary Union! Gold content 0.29gr

Post that.

1 krone = 1.05 francs (0.305hr gold)
1 mark = 1.23 francs (0.358gr gold)
1 ruble = 2.67 francs (0.774gr gold)
1 dollar = 5 francs (slightly more in reality 1.505 gr gold so 5.19 )
1 Ottoman pound = 22.8 francs (6.61gr gold)
1 British pound = 25.22 francs or 4.86 dollars (7.3gr gold)

So to bring out Mitchell's European historical statistics Italian GDP in 1913 was 21.4 billion lire. Germany 52.44 billion marks. By comparison Britain was 2,354 billion pounds and France 49,573 million francs. Or to turn everything to francs

Italy: 21,400
France: 49,573
Britain: 59,369
Germany: 64,501

If memory serves the Ottoman empire in 1914 was 235 million or 5,358 million francs, with the territory lost in the Balkan wars it should be ~280-300 million or 8.84 billion francs. Greece in 1914 1,236 million francs (and would go up to 4,267 million by 1918, stabilize at 3,950 in 1919-20 then drop like a rock in 1921-23 to 1,412 before bouncing up again after 1924.)
Thank you! This will be very helpful!
 
Well, this is certainly one of the most interesting WW1 ending scenarios I've seen in a long time. :)

If I were ruling communist Germany, and I wanted to do something about those backstabbing Austrians, I'd be thinking about trying to stir up conflict between the various nationalities in the empire. As the saying goes, Divide and Conquer.
The Germans will be eyeing up the ethnic diversity of Austria to use to their advantage indeed in the future.........
 
I'm quite shocked Britain allowed France to get Eritrea, this means they if need to can just shell any ships coming from the Suez till their taken out, thus can choke world trade, probably why they took Somalia from Italy to make it two front but still quite shocking. I guess France's next colonial move will be the take over of Ethiopia.
France has Djibouti though
Germany's situation is far worse than OLT in the sense their still is another strong German state to compete with, frankly Hitler might instead be a German nationalists trying to push for a gigantic empire of Austria to put the Slavs and Italians in their places if he tried his career. Still hope and hatred springs eternal.
Indeed Germany's position is more precarious
Italy's revolution will change things, I'm not entirely sure how but I suspect in many ways the Italian land might be able to shake the world the most, since the Vatican A needs to deal with the revival of the Muslim religious strong leadership and the threat of revolt and communism spreading through Italy. This is me throwing ideas at the wall but I wonder if we have Spain get involved and a kind neo Hapsburg type union form.
The Vatican is in for a time of its life. They're going to be faring far better than otl. Ww1 culled religiosity in Europe. To a large extent it has still been culled, but the shorter war means more religious folks that don't lose faith in their religions.
Russia I'm a bit unsure of, I figured if anything the Russian army would love to provoke and deal with a Polish revolt, crush it and exile hundreds of thousands to Siberia now that their is no threat of foreign intervention unless their side wants to deal with Germany getting land back than deal with the potential of nationalism spreading throughout their empire, plus a reward for the loyal men who now get to live in their new polish homes rather than traitors who sided with a Germany that is collapsing.
That was pre-1904 policy. After 1904 that kind of policy was scraped
Now onto the whole possibility for WW2 German allies I got some ideas, though given world war 1 here is more like four wars in the Balkan war, Germany/Austro versus entente war and Japanese/China and US Philippines.

Iran, this might sound odd but it's very recently that Iran lost territory to Russia, their partially occupied by Russia and the British and has a lot of groups that are Persian in the Russian empire like Tajiks. It also has not lost millions of people to the famine during world war one so their population should be higher than the OLT.

Afghanistan, largely the same reasons for why Persia would join, plus it would create a land connection between China, Persia, granted this idea is not the best but it could work if largely defensive role.

China, it's currently occupied by the Germany's enemies and they lost their claims on it, it's in need of help to build up their country and Germany needs cash, this way if Persia join you can have three fronts on Russia.

This is I admit something I'm not sure would be as much a ally as benefactor the US, Germanic language and culture is not suppressed, it's also a good place to hide from the UK and France. The United Kingdom, France and Russia are still vast empires and if the US ever want's to be the number one power it needs to undermine the rest.

Granted I suspect world war 2 will be a bunch of wars happening on all once like this world war 1 with the separate Balkan wars.

I can see Britain and France, Russia try to destroy the Ottoman empire at some point, given their Muslim colonial populations, the need ironically to more to avoid Russia becoming one of the strongest nations on earth and to further control the Suez.

France will likely try to take over Ethiopia at some point for control over the Nile.

The whole Pacific region is brimming with tension given the recent expansion of the British empire, the Philippines revolt revolt and Japan's empire, I wonder if China can ever retake Taiwan or it liberate itself given the historic rebel groups.
ww2 ittl will certainly be like ww1 ittl. A bunch of wars happening at the same time.
 
Sorry misread that.

The future certainly looks bleak for Germany, with Bavaria's secession the very idea of Germany is in peril and since I doubt the next war is going to go any better for them (if anything it seems likely it'll go even worse with Russia not having the Soviets to derail their OTL trajectory) it seems we'll see an even more diminished Germany than OTL.View attachment 646988
Largely i am just attacking the trope that a surviving Ottoman Empire means = Rising and surviving Imperial Germany ittl.
 
why do i care about germany it's ottoman tl don't why i cared about it here.

Goddam at this point can anyone challange France or Russia? Btw im confused is all the land France annexed in europe a mandate Saarland and Paltinate or just the latter?

Will the ottomans Poland develop strong ties Ottomans never recognised the partition and they could be allie the poles can rely on as both Germany and Austria have bad blood with Poland.
The French have the Palatinate as a Mandate, and have directly annexed the Saar.
Poland is only semi-independent. They do not have the jurisdiction for independent foreign relations.
 
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