Why are people lumping Lithuania into Poland? Wouldn't that lead to later ethnic conflicts?
Optimal Post-WWI Polish Borders Map Survey
- Thread starter Magnificate
- Start date
Haha i suppose so. I got bored so i self challenged myself to make a map of the largest Poland possible while remaining relatively non offensive to Russia and Germany (in territorial terms at least).Latvia and Slovakia as targets for expansion? I sense an influence from Paradox games.
It ended up similar to a mad dog being contained in a yard by a chainlink fence then lashing out at everything around it.
It does make for rather interesting borders though. BlondieBC
Banned
Sure, it has real potential. But it the second way for Poland to get sea access. Poland has limited choices. Many areas in Poland have no majority "race". Many of these have disputed pluralities. How do you count a person who is half German, half Polish who speaks four languages and goes to the Russian Orthodox mass. God himself could not draw lines that would avoid all conflicts.
1) Go with Germany. Use only German ports or try to federate with Lithuania.
2) Go with Russia. Port in West Prussia.
3) OTL - Piss off both Germany and Russia.
Another thing I noticed is that to get Lithuania, East Prussia also becomes Polish. Like that's a good idea...
I don't know, as a sasquatch?
RadioSilence said:
Kaunas and the region north of it makes more sense within Polish borders than many places that ended up in Polish hands OTL. Plus, there was already an ethnic conflict ongoing there. There still is.
Well, it's not like Germany can do something worse to the Poles for this than it did in OTL, and removing East Prussia as part of it improves Polish strategic position a whole lot.
I don't take 'optimal' to mean "best possible result for Poland", but "best possible result for everyone". Giving East Prussia (which is vast majority German) to Poland is not at all "best" for the people of East Prussia.
How much of East Prussia is Polish? I thought it was mostly populated by Germans. Doesn't seem very fair to take a part of Germany and give it to Poland if the people there don't want it.
Oh well I guess that answers the question.
If we want the best result for Poland we should give it everything up until the present-day Russian border and half of Ukraine, and use the modern German border on the Oder river as its western extreme...
I never said that. Come to think of it, however, (assuming there is still a recognizable WWII and that this East Prussia would either be autonomous within Poland or neutralized and thus self-ruling like a huge Danzig Free City) if in effect the Polish are able to withstand Fall Weiss and give time for the French to strike, and the war ends quickly, it may well be better than OTL's carnage and expulsion.
Almost nothing. South spoke Polish, which was used by Polish nationalists to claim it, but these people supported Prussia (with 2 small areas being exceptions)
One can generally see 2 trends here:
- first, which seems to include all Poles, prioritizing sea access, industry and generally ethnic borders
- second, probably favored by germanophiles, seeking to make Poland a "steppe Yugoslavia".
I subscribe for the first one, naturally.
Based on this map of polish ethnicity, and trying to keeps borders good looking:
side notes:
- aim to include all territories with polish plurality.
- preference for industrial areas
- expansion into Lithuania, Baltics, Belarus and Slovakia envisaged only as federation. Otherwise eastern border should remain on Bug river, with inclusion of Lvov. Vilnius and other polish plurality areas in the northeast to be included if federation fails, otherwise may be left to federated Lithuania.
- colonial outpost to consider to GTFO to by government if Germans and Russians still decide to come uninvited.
- first, which seems to include all Poles, prioritizing sea access, industry and generally ethnic borders
- second, probably favored by germanophiles, seeking to make Poland a "steppe Yugoslavia".
I subscribe for the first one, naturally.
Based on this map of polish ethnicity, and trying to keeps borders good looking:
side notes:
- aim to include all territories with polish plurality.
- preference for industrial areas
- expansion into Lithuania, Baltics, Belarus and Slovakia envisaged only as federation. Otherwise eastern border should remain on Bug river, with inclusion of Lvov. Vilnius and other polish plurality areas in the northeast to be included if federation fails, otherwise may be left to federated Lithuania.
- colonial outpost to consider to GTFO to by government if Germans and Russians still decide to come uninvited.
Seeing that the previous survey was mentioned on the Strange Maps it's a good opportunity for a BUMP!
My opinion
I loved this survey/game - very entertaining and educational.
Do you have results that contain the newer submissions?
(Sorry for the photo quality, my computer is having issues, and I will upload a higher quality photo when I can)
I loved this survey/game - very entertaining and educational.
Do you have results that contain the newer submissions?
(Sorry for the photo quality, my computer is having issues, and I will upload a higher quality photo when I can)
Caesar Biden
Banned
I made the optimal Polish borders.... for Germany. Hey, it's gonna be locked anyways.
CaliGuy
Banned
My own first attempt at this:
Explanation: The core of Poland, the Polish Corridor, and the resource-rich part of Upper Silesia should be given first priority. Second priority should be Danzig, the Polish-majority areas in the northeast, and a couple of possibly strategic areas in the east. Third priority should be a few areas in the northeast with Polish minorities as well as heavily Polish areas in the southeast.
Meanwhile, I would keep Subcarpathian Ruthenia and Bukovina if they were offered to me because I want a direct link with Hungary and Romania. Similarly, I would keep various small areas in the west if they were offered to me in order to have a stronger position in relation to Germany.
Anyway, how was that?
Explanation: The core of Poland, the Polish Corridor, and the resource-rich part of Upper Silesia should be given first priority. Second priority should be Danzig, the Polish-majority areas in the northeast, and a couple of possibly strategic areas in the east. Third priority should be a few areas in the northeast with Polish minorities as well as heavily Polish areas in the southeast.
Meanwhile, I would keep Subcarpathian Ruthenia and Bukovina if they were offered to me because I want a direct link with Hungary and Romania. Similarly, I would keep various small areas in the west if they were offered to me in order to have a stronger position in relation to Germany.
Anyway, how was that?
This map is designed to be a compromise between Germany and Poland. The core part of the corridor belongs to Germany but Poland gets full rights to transport goods through an extraterritorial railway. The coastal part of the corridor is given to Poland as an exclave. Maintaining a positive German-Polish relationship means that Poland can sell their goods to Germany, which makes sea access not as necessary
Last edited:
Please see the descriptions below if you find the white parts distressing.
Violet is not negotiable. (A guaranteed outlet on the Vistula could be arranged)
Blue: unless the local population refuses to join Poland altogether, put them under Polish jurisdiction.
Green: this includes Wilno, Tarnopol, Opole and Gdansk. Take as much from this as possible. This also includes Orava (western 2).
The above colours cover all of West Prussia, sans Deutsch Krone, where the Poles is only 1% of the population, and Elbing (0.3% Polish). In comparison, Gdansk has a Polish population of 2%, the third lowest population percentage, while Marienburg has 2.7%.
Yellow covers all of OTL Poland in 1939, as well as Spiš (eastern 2), Deutsch Krone (NW 13), Elbing (western 17), Lauenburg (far northern 13), Bytow (northern 13) and Marggrabowa (SE 17), the last one of which is for a more defensible border with East Prussia.
White is reserved for a possible Poland-Lithuania. This includes all of OTL interwar Lithuania (priority 1), Latvia (priority 2) and Belarusian SSR (45: priority 2; All of Belarus: maybe), as well as Gumbinen (eastern 17, priority 3).
All others are no-go. In the case of Königsberg (remainder of 17), leave it as an independent country, or if white is included, a protectorate of Poland-Lithuania.
Violet is not negotiable. (A guaranteed outlet on the Vistula could be arranged)
Blue: unless the local population refuses to join Poland altogether, put them under Polish jurisdiction.
Green: this includes Wilno, Tarnopol, Opole and Gdansk. Take as much from this as possible. This also includes Orava (western 2).
The above colours cover all of West Prussia, sans Deutsch Krone, where the Poles is only 1% of the population, and Elbing (0.3% Polish). In comparison, Gdansk has a Polish population of 2%, the third lowest population percentage, while Marienburg has 2.7%.
Yellow covers all of OTL Poland in 1939, as well as Spiš (eastern 2), Deutsch Krone (NW 13), Elbing (western 17), Lauenburg (far northern 13), Bytow (northern 13) and Marggrabowa (SE 17), the last one of which is for a more defensible border with East Prussia.
White is reserved for a possible Poland-Lithuania. This includes all of OTL interwar Lithuania (priority 1), Latvia (priority 2) and Belarusian SSR (45: priority 2; All of Belarus: maybe), as well as Gumbinen (eastern 17, priority 3).
All others are no-go. In the case of Königsberg (remainder of 17), leave it as an independent country, or if white is included, a protectorate of Poland-Lithuania.