Optimal GERMANY post-World War I borders survey (Central Powers victory)

[CaliGuy]

I decided to create an optimal borders survey for Germany after the end of World War I in the event that the Central Powers would have won World War I.

Anyway, here is my map:

Basically, my first priority would be to outright annex both iron ore-rich Briey and Longwy and the strategic Suwalki Gubernia (both in dark purple). In addition to this, my first priority would be to strip Poland, Lithuania, and Courland from Russia--for strategic reasons--but without outright annexing them (which is why they are in light purple rather than dark purple).

Meanwhile, my second priority would be to outright annex Luxembourg (due to its ethnic German population) as well as to separate Ukraine (minus Crimea, which is very important to Russia), Moldova, and Riga (due to its ethnic German influence and history) from Russia (in order to significantly weaken Russia) but without outright annexing any of these territories to Germany. Anyway, Luxembourg is dark blue on this map while Ukraine, Moldova, and Riga are light blue on this map.

As for my third priority, it would be to outright annex the rest of Lorraine (from France; in dark green) as well as to separate Crimea, Belarus, Livonia, Estonia, and Finland (all in light green on this map) from Russia for strategic reasons as well as to further weaken Russia (and without outright annexing any of these territories to Germany).

As for the German-majority, Czech-majority, and Slovene-majority parts of Austria-Hungary, if Austria-Hungary implodes, I would be willing to annex these territories (all of which are in yellow on this map) if that is what the majority of the population in these territories wants. However, I would not actively pursue any of these territories.

Anyway, how exactly does my map here look?

EDIT: This is my base map for this: http://d-maps.com/m/history/europe1914/europe191403.gif

 

[CaliGuy]

How come the other threads similar to this one (with the exception of the thread for Italy) are popular but the threads for Germany and Italy aren't?

 

[LNSS]

Lorraine is indefensible unless you do something about Belgium. Split Wallonia from Belgium, either annex it or make it a Protectorate so Germany can have soldiers there. At the most I can see Germany annexing all of Congress Poland in the east, there is no sense in outright annexing parts of Belarus and Ukraine and all of Lithuania.

 

[Perkeo]

I think that any territorial expansion of Germany is a mistake. They already had all they could reasonably demand except - ironically - German Austria, which I'd keep in a reformed A-H.
Eastern Europe should have today's OTL borders (except Poland, which only hs the former Russian part), and create a Mitteleuropa similar to OTL EU.

 

[Zagan]

How come the other threads similar to this one (with the exception of the thread for Italy) are popular but the threads for Germany and Italy aren't?

Please compare the detail on the maps, the numbering scheme, the legend, the presence of a blank editable map, the multitude of regions to choose from, the thread tags, etc. The interest in a thread is usually dictated by the amount of effort put in by the thread creator.

 

[anotherlurker]

You could "reward" Italy, Spain and Belgium with some French territory (hint: Accepting the offer is mandatory) but for Germany at most the Longwy iron mines right across the border and some harbors in the Bretagne as strategic ports/military bases.

Now colonies... that's where it gets interesting due to emerging power projection capabilities.

 

[michael1]

"optimal" depends on what you're trying to achieve. By one definition it could include giving back Alsace-Lorraine and reconstituting Poland including bits of Silesia and West Prussia to get as close to an ethnic border as possible and reduce tension with France both possibly in Germany's interest.

I'm joking (mostly), and am well aware it would never happen with a CP victory.

 

[MichaelWest]

Optimal depends upon the ends sought, security, prosperity, peace, stature, each calls for a different math. First I think that sober minds in Germany would quickly question annexing yet more minorities into Germany, especially the Poles. they had an independent history and already bristled under Russian dominance, I think the same could be said for Lithuanians and was becoming true for the Czechs. More territory does Germany little good post-war. In fact I think one could argue that A-L was on the table to be partitioned ethnically "German" and French or relinquished in whole under the right circumstances. Only German Austria was worth the effort and I am not convinced that it would truly fit well unless A-H implodes, something I think is not a foregone conclusion. But then once you spill this much blood and lose that much treasure any rational or magnanimous outcomes become hard to see.

For me a CP "victory" is likely a stalemated war with Russia collapsing and an armistice to the West, it likely results from an East offensive strategy and no invasion of Belgium, potentially a neutral British Empire, here Germany might not have to dig as deep simply to not be vanquished and is in no position to dictate terms (neither is France). That might be the only perfect alignment to get a lasting peace in Europe.

Germany long term would have benefitted from both supporting independence for all these nationalities and seeking to build a genuine free trade zone, potentially also a mutual defense alliance. I assume Luxembourg is merging into the Empire as another co-equal state. Assuming Germany is holding A-L then annexing the iron ore regions is likely if they are under German control but anything more is both destabilizing and potentially unworkable. I think the regions in now Estonia and Latvia could be enticed to join the Empire but Lithuania like Poland is better set free to face the Russian (or Soviet) threat. Same with the Ukraine and Finland. Both of these later two might accept a German (or Austrian) "King" while fitting into a German dominated economic zone under German protection. Poland likely goes far more independent for some time before finding that Germany is a rather good neighbor. But to have such vision during or immediately post-war is improbable. There would be as much mishandling and crisscrossed purposes until things get sorted and that invites the hard feeling that might doom it. Such a foresighted policy would likely preclude another war. But if we can find such a thing then I assume that even if Germany gets a few new bits and bobs they may get set free as the future unfolds. If Germany builds a successful economic union then political independence becomes easier to grant the minority peoples in a Courland or Lorraine or Danish Schleswig, they are still locked in a mutual defense pact if there is a USSR to threaten stability, or at worst solidly neutrals, even France would in time find it impossible not to improve relations with Germany. But then we get the colonial holdings and that gets us back to the bitter game that might spoil things.

 

[Prince Daemon Targaryen]

I doubt the Germans would annex all of Lorraine. Briey-Longwy and Luxembourg yes, but they probably wouldn't want to deal with more French in their nation. As for the east, I could see them annexing Crimea as a German outpost in the east but the rest would largely be puppet kingdoms ruled by German princes. A-H imploding would bring Austria into Germany, no doubt about it, though they'd probably grant independence to Croatia and Bohemia/Moravia - minus the Sudentenland. They would learn the lesson of having too many ethnic minorities from A-H. They'd curb much of the Polish nationalism by having an independent Poland.

 

[Saci]

If I were a diplomat my immediate plans would be the annexation of Luxemburg and either annexation or the independence for X years for Briey and Longwy, with Germany receiving the rights for mineral extraction there as well. In the east there'd be no annexations but the new polish state would need to accept german military control over it's border railways.

If Austria Hungary somehow implodes, annex Austria, Slovenia and the german majority parts of Bohemia. Central Bohemia would be set up as an independent kingdom.

 

[CaliGuy]

Please compare the detail on the maps, the numbering scheme, the legend, the presence of a blank editable map, the multitude of regions to choose from, the thread tags, etc. The interest in a thread is usually dictated by the amount of effort put in by the thread creator.

On the one hand, I really do get your point here; however, on the other hand, it's not like anyone else here is going to make a more detailed map here. Thus, it looks like it's a choice between either commenting in this thread or not commenting at all.

 

[CaliGuy]

Lorraine is indefensible unless you do something about Belgium. Split Wallonia from Belgium, either annex it or make it a Protectorate so Germany can have soldiers there. At the most I can see Germany annexing all of Congress Poland in the east, there is no sense in outright annexing parts of Belarus and Ukraine and all of Lithuania.

Based on my map above, Lorraine doesn't appear to be indefensible.

Also, annexing Congress Poland would be extremely problematic since it would increase Germany's ethnic Polish population by several times; indeed, making Poland a puppet state while annexing the strategic Suwalki Gubernia seems like the much better move here.

I think that any territorial expansion of Germany is a mistake. They already had all they could reasonably demand except - ironically - German Austria, which I'd keep in a reformed A-H.
Eastern Europe should have today's OTL borders (except Poland, which only hs the former Russian part), and create a Mitteleuropa similar to OTL EU.

Germany could benefit from having iron ore-rich Briey-Longwy, though. Also, the Suwalki Gubernia would be good to have for strategic reasons in the event that Lithuania will become hostile to Germany (and perhaps ally itself with Russia).

You could "reward" Italy, Spain and Belgium with some French territory (hint: Accepting the offer is mandatory) but for Germany at most the Longwy iron mines right across the border and some harbors in the Bretagne as strategic ports/military bases.

Now colonies... that's where it gets interesting due to emerging power projection capabilities.

What colonies would you demand?

 

[anotherlurker]

What colonies would you demand?

It's WW1 and everyone wants a place in the sun so they're asking for all the colonies!

Personally i'd just take a bunch of harbor with 50 kilometers of land in all directions as a buffer and to feed the town, you can easily establish a "Hong Kong" there, send sufficient settlers and build up all the infrastructure you'd need to stay there permanently. There's no real reason to bother with the barely reachable inland.

 

[Tibi088]

Why would they annex Lorrainne? Its entirely french and would be much more trouble than its worth. My guess is in the west the most is Luxemburg, Briey and Longwy, and maybe Liege (Lüttich) from Belgium.

In the East mostly small scale border correction towards Poland and maybe the Baltic Duchy can be annexed at most but neither is necessery. Rest goes to new 'independent' states who will hapily join Mittelerupe.

If Austria does fall apart than the Austrian part of the Empire without Galicia, Bukovina and Dalmatia would be annexed to Germany.

Local populace wont be asked in any of the above cases.

 

[Augenis]

Also, annexing Congress Poland would be extremely problematic since it would increase Germany's ethnic Polish population by several times; indeed, making Poland a puppet state while annexing the strategic Suwalki Gubernia seems like the much better move here.

Why is Suvalkija strategically important? It's only going to make a bigger salient for East Prussia.

 

[Deleted member 94680]

Why is Suvalkija strategically important? It's only going to make a bigger salient for East Prussia.

I decided to create an optimal borders survey for Germany after the end of World War I in the event that the Central Powers would have won World War I.

Very much doubt victorious Central Powers would allow a Polish Corridor to exist.

 

[Augenis]

Very much doubt victorious Central Powers would allow a Polish Corridor to exist.

I don't mean "East Prussia" in that it would be separated from the rest of Germany.

 

[Deleted member 94680]

I don't mean "East Prussia" in that it would be separated from the rest of Germany.

Ah, my bad.

We need to know what @CaliGuy means by "strategically important" really.

To @CaliGuy, what was your base map? The borders in the East especially look very hand drawn as opposed to being based on Russian governates. Are they river borders?

 

[TheBrunswickian]

Austria-Hungary is a Central Power ally. Why is Germany annexing all that territory? If the Centrals win, then Austria-Hungary survives surely? It may have to federalise, mind you but that's a different issue all together.

 

[Mikestone8]

You could "reward" Italy, Spain and Belgium with some French territory (hint: Accepting the offer is mandatory) but for Germany at most the Longwy iron mines right across the border and some harbors in the Bretagne as strategic ports/military bases.

Possibly also Belfort and the western slopes of the Vosges. That leaves Alsace-Lorraine somewhat bigger than prewar, but still approximately the same shape.