Opinions on a venice TL

[Ofaloaf]

Thank you!! I'm sure this can be used to an advantage! i will definitely look this up. Now were gettin somewhere!

If you're going to use the voluntary unification route, remember that no Italian state would likely agree to such a proposal without serious protections and guaruntees, and even if Venice acts as the nucleus for such a country, the other Italian states involved would be reluctant to follow its lead and let the North Italian country become a Venice-centric thing.

Quite frankly, I've always thought Genoa held more promise for these sorts of early expansion/unification things than Venice ever did. They've got a good banking system, better connections to Western Europe (especially in the 15th-17th centuries), and, depending on the era, held sway over a large portion of the Mediterranean.

 

[Franciscus Caesar]

If you're going to use the voluntary unification route, remember that no Italian state would likely agree to such a proposal without serious protections and guaruntees, and even if Venice acts as the nucleus for such a country, the other Italian states involved would be reluctant to follow its lead and let the North Italian country become a Venice-centric thing.

Quite frankly, I've always thought Genoa held more promise for these sorts of early expansion/unification things than Venice ever did. They've got a good banking system, better connections to Western Europe (especially in the 15th-17th centuries), and, depending on the era, held sway over a large portion of the Mediterranean.

Then maybe i'm looking at the wrong city state. would this be possible with Genoa? is that what your saying?

 

[Falastur]

Hmmm, Very interesting! So if i move the date of colonization to the 1600s you believe that the riches would be more easily accessible? What would happen with Columbus' possessions? should his birth date be moved to the late 1500s? I'm sure the issue of Venetian Manpower would not be THAT much of a problem. I'm sure Venice could start a union/ merge with Milan and Florence due to some special outcome of the league of Cognac... though come to think of it, thats still not the population of Spain. Is there any way you can even remotely have this situation work for Venice?

Perhaps I should elaborate: America needs to be discovered (almost certainly around 1500) before you start colonising in 1600. This allows for the sugar in the Caribbean islands to be known about, so that a country can go straight for the money, rather than bumbling for decades and getting it wrong. So this encourages Venice to NOT be the country to discover America. You still need to find a way to prompt Venice to want to look over the Atlantic, though. Also, Venice isn't going to merge with Milan or Florence. Merging frankly doesn't happen in politics. There's no good reasons for countries to sacrifice their sovereignty and their freedom to rule themselves to either let another country annex them or share power. In fact sharing power is probably the less likely of the two.

And in answer to your previous comment: Genoa had peaked by 1500. From about the 16th century, they were essentially constantly either a French or Spanish "vassal", though this wasn't so much a political reliance, more they were pawns in France and Spain's foreign policy; a tool to be used against the other, and one too weak to fight its way out of their control.

 

[Ofaloaf]

And in answer to your previous comment: Genoa had peaked by 1500. From about the 16th century, they were essentially constantly either a French or Spanish "vassal", though this wasn't so much a political reliance, more they were pawns in France and Spain's foreign policy; a tool to be used against the other, and one too weak to fight its way out of their control.

Say, they weren't that beholden to Spain or France. Spain, arguably, was more Genoa's minion than the other way around, since Spain had taken out so many loans from the Bank of St. George, and Genoans were everywhere in the Iberian markets.

 

[Falastur]

But they were still occupied by France almost as a matter of routine every so often, and their politics by the 16th century was little diversified from simply being somewhere involved in those of France and Spain...

 

[Ofaloaf]

But they were still occupied by France almost as a matter of routine every so often, and their politics by the 16th century was little diversified from simply being somewhere involved in those of France and Spain...

Eh, after the last of the Franco-Spanish Wars fought on Italian soil finished, the Genoans really did have their money everywhere. If memory serves right, they invested considerable amounts in both the British EIC and Dutch VOC, for instance.

 

[Franciscus Caesar]

Perhaps I should elaborate: America needs to be discovered (almost certainly around 1500) before you start colonising in 1600. This allows for the sugar in the Caribbean islands to be known about, so that a country can go straight for the money, rather than bumbling for decades and getting it wrong. So this encourages Venice to NOT be the country to discover America. You still need to find a way to prompt Venice to want to look over the Atlantic, though. Also, Venice isn't going to merge with Milan or Florence. Merging frankly doesn't happen in politics. There's no good reasons for countries to sacrifice their sovereignty and their freedom to rule themselves to either let another country annex them or share power. In fact sharing power is probably the less likely of the two.

And in answer to your previous comment: Genoa had peaked by 1500. From about the 16th century, they were essentially constantly either a French or Spanish "vassal", though this wasn't so much a political reliance, more they were pawns in France and Spain's foreign policy; a tool to be used against the other, and one too weak to fight its way out of their control.

So WI: Spain discovered the new world as per OTL and Venice, through some way or another (help in a war, i know we can think of something) managed to make a deal with France early in the 1700s for their rather useless colony of St. Domingue? then they can have a first hit home run with a colony. maybe a close ally ship with France will let them have this colony and build an Atlantic fleet!? if this is plausible what would come next for Venice? maybe Genoa can replace Venice in the above proposed scenario change due to the stated close relationship with France (of which i am aware of!)

 

[Abdul Hadi Pasha]

So WI: Spain discovered the new world as per OTL and Venice, through some way or another (help in a war, i know we can think of something) managed to make a deal with France early in the 1700s for their rather useless colony of St. Domingue? then they can have a first hit home run with a colony. maybe a close ally ship with France will let them have this colony and build an Atlantic fleet!? if this is plausible what would come next for Venice? maybe Genoa can replace Venice in the above proposed scenario change due to the stated close relationship with France (of which i am aware of!)

The problem you're going to have is that Italy has no Atlantic access. The first war will find it stripped of any colonies it establishes - heck, it might even find it's possessions stripped by pirates.

That's why the Scandinavian countries and the Netherlands never really managed to establish much in the way of New World colonies. They just can't defend them against Atlantic powers.

Earlier Italian unification doesn't really help us here - and I just don't see how Italy could unite in the 11th or 12th c - or even the 16th, given the absolute lack of Italian identity. Heck, there wasn't even really Italian identity AFTER Italian unification in the 19th c - it had to be manufactured.

If you want to do a Venice-wank scenario, I think you should concentrate on Venice holding onto what it had, maybe through alliance with the Ottomans, so that they can maintain a predominant position in the Mediterranean.

 

[Falastur]

So WI: Spain discovered the new world as per OTL and Venice, through some way or another (help in a war, i know we can think of something) managed to make a deal with France early in the 1700s for their rather useless colony of St. Domingue? then they can have a first hit home run with a colony. maybe a close ally ship with France will let them have this colony and build an Atlantic fleet!? if this is plausible what would come next for Venice? maybe Genoa can replace Venice in the above proposed scenario change due to the stated close relationship with France (of which i am aware of!)

Supposing you engineered a situation where Venice was actually useful to France, this is plausible enough. Some may question why France would invite another country out into the world of colonies where they'd prefer less competition, but it's possible. Some strange countries did acquire colonies in the Caribbean - Courland, for instance. France would probably make this deal expecting to regain the island later. An alternative would be to have France take a loan from Venice for some reason, and then secure it against an island. Then, in the middle of a war they are losing, have them default on all of their loans, leading Venice to declare the island ceded. Of course, this would make France even more determined to regain the island, but if you're writing the TL around this then creative event writing can make sure they fail.

It would all be a little bit unlikely, but these two situations are plausible. What you then want to do is not so much have Venice go all Navy crazy. You want them to do what France and England were doing, and have them form a trading network all around the east American coastline. The slave triangle is a good way of making profits. Then slowly have them branch out. They'll never rival the UK, or France, Spain, Portugal, the Dutch for profit margins, but you can this way establish them as a colonial nation with world trading prospects. It's all a little false, mainly just because everyone's idea of Venice is distinctly Mediterranean-only, but it's plausible.

Owning a few islands at best also helps them escape the problem that they really don't have the population for large-scale colonising.

 

[Codae]

That's why the Scandinavian countries and the Netherlands never really managed to establish much in the way of New World colonies. They just can't defend them against Atlantic powers.

I fail to see how the Netherlands are not an Atlantic power. Is it because their coast is on the North Sea, rather than unobstructed ocean?

 

[Franciscus Caesar]

If you want to do a Venice-wank scenario, I think you should concentrate on Venice holding onto what it had, maybe through alliance with the Ottomans, so that they can maintain a predominant position in the Mediterranean.

yes but i fail to see how that becomes a Venice-wank!? if they remain with their med. possesions, one might as well stick to OTL and not write a new one

 

[Franciscus Caesar]

Supposing you engineered a situation where Venice was actually useful to France, this is plausible enough. Some may question why France would invite another country out into the world of colonies where they'd prefer less competition, but it's possible. Some strange countries did acquire colonies in the Caribbean - Courland, for instance. France would probably make this deal expecting to regain the island later. An alternative would be to have France take a loan from Venice for some reason, and then secure it against an island. Then, in the middle of a war they are losing, have them default on all of their loans, leading Venice to declare the island ceded. Of course, this would make France even more determined to regain the island, but if you're writing the TL around this then creative event writing can make sure they fail.

It would all be a little bit unlikely, but these two situations are plausible. What you then want to do is not so much have Venice go all Navy crazy. You want them to do what France and England were doing, and have them form a trading network all around the east American coastline. The slave triangle is a good way of making profits. Then slowly have them branch out. They'll never rival the UK, or France, Spain, Portugal, the Dutch for profit margins, but you can this way establish them as a colonial nation with world trading prospects. It's all a little false, mainly just because everyone's idea of Venice is distinctly Mediterranean-only, but it's plausible.

Owning a few islands at best also helps them escape the problem that they really don't have the population for large-scale colonising.

if couland can have a colony then damn it Venice can! hmmm, i'm glad/ upset i set this thread up. i now c that what i initially intended (a Venetian wank) is quit impossible. i don't fully understand the "trading network". did the country fully own the trading post? as in Portugal with Goa and in Japan? i'm sorry if it sounds repetitive but is there ANY possibility a venetian wank map can be achieved? if not, i think a large trade empire would suffice. Again, Thank You all for ur help!!

 

[Abdul Hadi Pasha]

I fail to see how the Netherlands are not an Atlantic power. Is it because their coast is on the North Sea, rather than unobstructed ocean?

Yes - the Netherlands can't maintain colonies in opposition to Britain.

 

[Cornelius]

I now that what I initially intended (a Venetian wank) is quit impossible.

I beg to differ. A venetian-wank is not impossible, only harder to realize, since Venice lacked the sheer amount of resources of other countries. Said this, there are some possibilities to explore. A few suggetions:

First: In order to keep her "colonial empire" in the mediterrean, Venice has to strike a deal with the ottomans. Without the sublime gate support, nothing can be obtained, or kept, in the eastern mediterrean. An alliance/vassalage with the ottoman empire would grant to Venice her status as main market for eastern goods. While the importance of mediterrean as commercial way declined after the discovery of Americas, it remained none the less a good avenue for any kind of wares. Moreover an alliance with the ottomans would probably save most of the venetian possessions in the east. Venice could even expand her empire conquering part of Dalmatia, Montenegro and Bosnia. With the riches gained from commerce, the manpower from Greece and Slavic possessions, the ottoman shield and a lot of shwred diplomacy, Venice should be able to keep at bay the other european nations.
All of this will need a lot of fine tuning, given the ottoman thrust toward Ungary and Austria, so maybe you'll want an ottoman empire more focused against Egypt and Persia (your man here is Abdul Hadi Pasha, I don't know enough about the matter).

Second: During the second half of the 16th century, Venice were pressured by the Pope to enforce strictier laws against eretics. Even if initially Venice resisted, in the following years the Doges had to cave in. In TTL this must be avoided. Venice have to stay a free place for everybody. This would lead to all the greater minds of the 16th and 17th century to seek shelter in Venice, making so the Serenissima republic a lighthouse for science and knowledge (Tip: a new universal library like the Alexandria'one, would be nice).

Third: In the 18th century the power of the ottomans will start to wane, so you'll need a new protector: the british fit the bill. Have the venetians strike an alliance with them. Backed by the british, venetia could begin to unify the peninsula, starting maybe with Naples and Sicily...
If eveything plays out nicely (and since it's a wank, why not) Venice could be master of a lot of Italy by the end of the 18th century. After the napoleonic storm, Venice could start to colonize Africa and maybe finance the Suez channel together with their old buddies, the ottomans.

if couland can have a colony then damn it Venice can!

To have colonies in america, Venice, or for the matter any other mediterrean nation, must have good relations with Spain, since they can cut off the access to atlantic quite easily. This, of course, goes against eveything I've written before. Even with Spain blessing, though, Venice will have to confine herself to the caribbean island ignored by the spanish. I would hearthly reccomand Barbados island, easy to defend, good for sugar cane and, simply put, beautyful .

 

[Tyr]

You must understand two things essential to comprehending the history of
Venice.

Indeed, Venice is the antithesis of standard alternate history and the idea of more land=more power.

 

[Falastur]

if couland can have a colony then damn it Venice can! hmmm, i'm glad/ upset i set this thread up. i now c that what i initially intended (a Venetian wank) is quit impossible. i don't fully understand the "trading network". did the country fully own the trading post? as in Portugal with Goa and in Japan? i'm sorry if it sounds repetitive but is there ANY possibility a venetian wank map can be achieved? if not, i think a large trade empire would suffice. Again, Thank You all for ur help!!

Ownership of trading posts was not compulsory but necessary. In this era, the tariffs charged to merchants were quite exorbitantly high, but were lowered for national ships - i.e. English ships in an English port would pay maybe 1/3 or 1/4 of the tariffs that a Dutch or French ship docking in that port would pay. This was not always that much of a big deal if the goods were hugely profitable, but a lot of the time it made the difference between the voyage being worthwhile or not. So a trading network could work without owned trading posts, but it would be very limited, and subject to price variation. Also, ownership of trading posts allowed a country to protect its shipping in times of war, provided that the trading posts don't fall.

As Cornelius said, a Venetowank is not impossible but limited due to the restrictions that Venice has. The best way to do a Venetowank is to concentrate on the Med. They already had a strong base there, and to turn to other avenues of interest is to bring trouble on yourself. What Venice was good at was controlling trade in the Mediterranean, and converting that control into political bargaining chips. Ever wondered why Venice kept so much land around Greece, during the zenith of the Ottoman's power? It's because their trade was too valuable to the Venetians. The Ottomans could never afford to attack the Venetians all-out because they couldn't afford the local-scale economic turmoil from sacrificing their trading relationship, so at most they picked off individual possessions every few decades, and even then half the time Venice just bargained them back. Venice proved a shrewd operator on numerous occasions, and showed that it had a lust for grabbing outposts. Just look at around 1500, when Venice seized a whole bunch of Neapolitan cities along the Adriatic coastline - Trani, Otranto, Brindisi, Monopoli, I think they held Bari too. If you want to write a Venetowank - and I take the opinion that wanks generally involve manipulating events in your favour perhaps more than luck could explain - then I suggest you trying writing a TL which involves Venice grabbing large chunks of the Adriatic coastline on both sides, and holding onto Greece. Then if you have them capitalise on Lepanto they can keep the Ottoman navy down and start taking outposts in Africa.

 

[Polish Eagle]

if couland can have a colony then damn it Venice can! hmmm, i'm glad/ upset i set this thread up. i now c that what i initially intended (a Venetian wank) is quit impossible. i don't fully understand the "trading network". did the country fully own the trading post? as in Portugal with Goa and in Japan? i'm sorry if it sounds repetitive but is there ANY possibility a venetian wank map can be achieved? if not, i think a large trade empire would suffice. Again, Thank You all for ur help!!

Yeah, I can see a Venice wank. First things first. Venice would not be able to control about half of the Ottomans' historical territory. The huge mountainous regions of eastern Turkey and beyond, not gonna happen. The logistics of that kind of control in a region that is religiously hostile are mind boggling.

Venice in the New World is actually very possible. When reading about powerful North Italian states, I sometimes wondered why Spain, which always seemed a land power, got the privelage. However, Venice lacked one thing that would make long term colonies feasible: Easy access to the Atlantic. Say a war breaks out against Spain. What happens first? Spain blockades Gibraltar and cuts off Venice from the colonies. Venice would conquer the straits just out of a need for security. Possibly placing really big guns on rocks.

Venice might play a role historically played by Spain in the New World. Conquering the natives, taking the gold, and getting a lot of money. For about a century, they'd have a monopoly on gold, sugar, and other products coming out of the New World.

Longer term: In the 17th century, I'd see Venice making efforts to unify Italy. Buying out Milan and Genoa, or conquering them, works. Now, since I last mentioned the Ottomans, let's focus again on the Mediterranean. Venice probably controls at this point Constantinople, Greece, and most of Anatolia. Regarding Italy, Venice has become strong enough to exercise a counterweight to the Papacy. Like the Holy Roman Empire of old, the Doges have been known to support certain Popes, and Popes that are unfavorable to Venice don't have particularly long reigns. This allows Venice to be a safeground for people like Galileo, and other great minds.

So, by the 18th century, large portions of the New World speak the language of Venice, North Italy is unified, Venice is a fairly advanced state, and the Aegean Sea is Venice's territory.

I don't know much about Italian history (sorry), but that's what I thought of.

 

[Jimbrock]

So, what if Italy united earlier (yes i've been reading all the threads saying this can't happen, but how COULD it)? Then Venice would build an Atlantic fleet, have the manpower...? If Venice would unite under a kingdom of Italy (even without the Kingdom of Naples, under Spanish rule) would it be possible? then you have the rich Italian city states of the north merged into one, with the money and manpower. maybe the ottoman thing still wouldn't work, but colonization!? I'm determined to make this work! And again, thanks everyone for the opinions and the help!

I remember reading somewhere (can't remember exactly where) that many Italian cities banded together in a league to fight the Hoffistans (I know that I've butchered the family name, but they were the HRE dynasty from Sicily, same time as Pope Innocent III). Having that league stay together could provide the nucleus for a unified Italy.

It was the house of Hohenstaufen and it formed the Lombard League which included cities such as: Milan, Piacenza, Cremona, Mantua, Crema, Bergamo, Brescia, Bologna, Padua, Treviso, Vicenza, Venice, Verona, Lodi, and Parma. All very powerful cities! The League was formed to counter the Holy Roman Empire's Frederick I, who was attempting to assert Imperial influence over Italy. Frederick claimed direct Imperial control over Italy at the Diet of Roncaglia (1158). The League had the support of Pope Alexander III, who also wished to see Imperial power in Italy decline. At the Battle of Legnano on May 29, 1176, Frederick I was defeated and, by the Peace of Venice, which took place in 1177, agreed to a six-year truce from August,1178 to 1183, until the Second Treaty of Constance, where the Italian cities agreed to remain loyal to the Empire but retained local jurisdiction over their territories.

This can be changed

*screams* Thats pretty much EXACTLY what I'm planning to do in my upcoming (hopefully) TL. And I mean pretty much exactly. Im planning to have Lombard league completely kick out the 'Hoffistans' (gotta love that) and become a defacto country. It will later evolve to an Italy-minus-Naples that sponsors Colombus and gets a pretty large (not Spainish empire-size, mind) and so on and so forth.

I must have explained that about 5 times on various threads . Publicity is always good, I guess!

And a little more on topic- no, a venetiowank is NOT possible in the Colonial and Imperial way you're asking, so I really doubt colonies for venice. Especially, as Polish Eagle just put across, Spain can render the colonies impossiblle in any war. And there will be war, it it comes to that scenario.

Jim

 

[Franciscus Caesar]

It was the house of Hohenstaufen and it formed the Lombard League which included cities such as: Milan, Piacenza, Cremona, Mantua, Crema, Bergamo, Brescia, Bologna, Padua, Treviso, Vicenza, Venice, Verona, Lodi, and Parma. All very powerful cities! The League was formed to counter the Holy Roman Empire's Frederick I, who was attempting to assert Imperial influence over Italy. Frederick claimed direct Imperial control over Italy at the Diet of Roncaglia (1158). The League had the support of Pope Alexander III, who also wished to see Imperial power in Italy decline. At the Battle of Legnano on May 29, 1176, Frederick I was defeated and, by the Peace of Venice, which took place in 1177, agreed to a six-year truce from August,1178 to 1183, until the Second Treaty of Constance, where the Italian cities agreed to remain loyal to the Empire but retained local jurisdiction over their territories.

This can be changed

Jim! I've already started research for this TL. i, however, am still relatively new and more self conscious about my writing so instead of me write one, i'd be glad to lend a hand on urs!

So judging by the new posts I feel VERY confident in Venice's ability to be wanked any more specifics that can be added onto Cornelius' post would be greatly appreciated because i feel this is the route i will be taking!

now... would it be possible that maybe when Spain's reconquista starts, venice can help and gain some kind of land at the mouth of the Mediterrenean? or maybe majorca can be captured in a venetian strike along with help from the numerically superior ottomans during the 1400s from aragon?? this can then be given to Spain for land on the Moroccan side of the mouth of the meditterenean? As stated above, this is for opinions but as a wank map can be manipulated in ones favour...

 

[Jimbrock]

Jim! I've already started research for this TL. i, however, am still relatively new and more self conscious about my writing so instead of me write one, i'd be glad to lend a hand on urs!

So judging by the new posts I feel VERY confident in Venice's ability to be wanked any more specifics that can be added onto Cornelius' post would be greatly appreciated because i feel this is the route i will be taking!

now... would it be possible that maybe when Spain's reconquista starts, venice can help and gain some kind of land at the mouth of the Mediterrenean? or maybe majorca can be captured in a venetian strike along with help from the numerically superior ottomans during the 1400s from aragon?? this can then be given to Spain for land on the Moroccan side of the mouth of the meditterenean? As stated above, this is for opinions but as a wank map can be manipulated in ones favour...

I would always love having people, especially Italians who can stop me if I get too ASB, following my TL. But I do not plan on going anywhere in the direction indicated in Cornelius' post so feel free to develop the idea if you want. My TL will probably involve the League conquering Venice, other way round.

Jim