Operation Sea Lion (1974 Sandhurst Wargame)

[Johnrankins]

So you have just admitted that the Luftwaffe, the KM's SOLE hope for not being wiped out to the last man in a fight with the Royal Navy, does't care about it's comrades and will gleefully attack the first warship they spot, whether a destroyer or auxiliary flying the RN ensign or a german light cruiser or invasion barge with a flak 88 mounted atop?

Glenn, the only thing you're doing here is embarrassing yourself.

Well, the men of the mighty Heer in the flak 88 mounted river barges aren't going to worry about being SUNK BY THEIR OWN SIDE and just carry on. Nor will they think about turning their 88s on LW trying to skink them in their own defense!

 

[sloreck]

I apologize

 

[mudhead]

Right, but the invasion fleet will turn around again and head for England as soon as the threat clears.

I actually burst out laughing when I read this.

Basically, what @DaveBC and @TDM said.

I noticed when reading up on Mediterranean operations in 1940, how at the Battle of Calibria a group of fifty SM79 bombed the Italian fleet. They failed to hit anything, but thats a considerable number from the 180+ sorties launched.

The Germans, of course, were much more efficient. Operation Wikinger.

 

[Johnrankins]

The Germans, of course, were much more efficient. Operation Wikinger.

To be fair he said the Germans had no problems with bombing their own troops.

 

[DaveB]

To be fair he said the Germans had no problems with bombing their own troops.

And to be even more fair, the LW will probably hit more RN warships than KM warships, if only because there will be more RN warships.

Hopefully they’ll be able to tell warships from barges.

 

[Johnrankins]

And to be even more fair, the LW will probably hit more RN warships than KM warships, if only because there will be more RN warships.

Hopefully they’ll be able to tell warships from barges.

Since barges with 88s are apparently little different than Iowa class battleships I doubt it.

 

[soothsayer]

Me too and without all the calculations I would have said 2-3 sorties per aircraft per day... I guess they could have pushed it to four if there was a great urgency but nothing more. And it's also doubtful they could have maintained that upper figure on a daily basis. So in a day the Ju87s could have flown just shy of the number of sorties they achieved throughout the 10 days of the Dunkirk evacuation.

According to “why air forces fail”, the LW was achieving “four to six sorties per day” in 1940 in France with fighters and Stukas from forward airfields.

Also Goring did not rotate or rest pilots.

Unless dead or in hospital, you fly!

 

[Grognard49]

What's a typical rate of roll (degrees per second) for a barge in sea state 1 or 2?

That's impossible to calculate without more information. What is the GM of the barge? It will change depending on how the barge is loaded. What is the sea state? Higher seas mean a faster roll. Are the seas on the bow, beam, or quarter? Roll rate will change depending on this also.

And don't forget that the barge will also be pitching and yawing that is also dependent on sea state and direction.

Any accurate gunnery from a stiff, long, narrow beam barge is just a pipe dream.

 

[Mumbles]

On which planet? On this one, it had its butt handed to it by the RAF.

Only after the Luftwaffe switched from targeting the RAF directly to targeting cities and industry instead. That error gave the RAF the break it needed, prior to that they were in real danger of being attritted out of the battle over Southern England and the Channel.

 

[Johnrankins]

Only after the Luftwaffe switched from targeting the RAF directly to targeting cities and industry instead. That error gave the RAF the break it needed, prior to that they were in real danger of being attritted out of the battle over Southern England and the Channel.

They had a plan for that. They were going to fly to Scottland to rebuild out of range, let England get pounded and fly down if invaded.

 

[Fred the Great]

On a related note, from well provisioned and prepared base, and for a short number of days, a Stuka could fly up to 10 attacks per day.

Do you now accept that this was a load of shit?

 

[wcv215]

Only after the Luftwaffe switched from targeting the RAF directly to targeting cities and industry instead.

Untrue. The LW was losing throughout. The myth developed because both sides underestimated the RAF’s strength in comparison to the LW.

 

[sloreck]

Unless you are taking off, dropping bombs about 5 miles from your runway, there is no way you can do 10 sorties a day, even in Norway in the summer...

 

[Fred the Great]

Unless you are taking off, dropping bombs about 5 miles from your runway, there is no way you can do 10 sorties a day, even in Norway in the summer...

Yep, and Glenn will not return to this point, and he certainly won't concede what he said was wrong.

There's a pattern emerging in his posting on this subject - about the only subject he posts on - and it is very much disingenuous.

He makes a range of claims, defends some - generally by using strawman arguments against those who disagree - and abandons those where it is clear he is on terribly shaky ground. But he never, ever concedes a point.

We saw it with all the nonsense about RN ammunition expenditure at the Battle of the Espero Convoy somehow meaning anything of relevance, and we're seeing it again with this utter tripe about 10 sorties a day.

 

[TDM]

And to be even more fair, the LW will probably hit more RN warships than KM warships, if only because there will be more RN warships.

Hopefully they’ll be able to tell warships from barges.

They better hope Sofaleutnant Glenn isn't directing that day

That's impossible to calculate without more information. What is the GM of the barge? It will change depending on how the barge is loaded. What is the sea state? Higher seas mean a faster roll. Are the seas on the bow, beam, or quarter? Roll rate will change depending on this also.

And don't forget that the barge will also be pitching and yawing that is also dependent on sea state and direction.

Any accurate gunnery from a stiff, long, narrow beam barge is just a pipe dream.

Probably not helped by the fact that a lot of them are tied to other barges and boats (with different characteristics) in a chain.

 

[DaveBC]

They better hope Sofaleutnant Glenn isn't directing that day




Probably not helped by the fact that a lot of them are tied to other barges and boats (with different characteristics) in a chain.

On the contrary, this is superb news. If any barge starts to sink, the men in the next barges along in the chain can just grab a hold on the rope and pull it back up to the surface.

 

[Deleted member 94680]

View attachment 456819

According to “why air forces fail”, the LW was achieving “four to six sorties per day” in 1940 in France with fighters and Stukas from forward airfields.

Also Goring did not rotate or rest pilots.

Unless dead or in hospital, you fly!

Interesting source. From the same book, this further section is good as well.

A system designed for short campaigns, which a Sealion rolling straight on from the BoB would not be, seems to have problems as this section later on makes clear.

A serviceability rate 20% (on average) lower than the RAF and a repair system that meant that planes that “needed only minor repairs to make them flyable” were in a position “that these aircraft became a total loss”.

 

[RodentRevolution]

Only after the Luftwaffe switched from targeting the RAF directly to targeting cities and industry instead. That error gave the RAF the break it needed, prior to that they were in real danger of being attritted out of the battle over Southern England and the Channel.

The reason the Luftwaffe switched was because they were suffering dangerous losses of their own. If Dowding finds himself with 2 operational aircraft and the Luftwaffe has 24, Dowding still scores a definitive victory.

 

[Ian Hathaway]

Interesting source. From the same book, this further section is good as well.

A system designed for short campaigns, which a Sealion rolling straight on from the BoB would not be, seems to have problems as this section later on makes clear.

A serviceability rate 20% (on average) lower than the RAF and a repair system that meant that planes that “needed only minor repairs to make them flyable” were in a position “that these aircraft became a total loss”.

At the start of the BoB serviceability rates for the Ju87 were running at 78%. During the BoB the production rate of the Ju87 was actually running higher than the loss rate. The Stuka units were moved and concentrated in the Pas de Calais after 18th August in preparation for support of possible invasion. This gave them at least a month to rest and regroup giving them a very similar serviceability rate that they had at the beginning of the campaign. You're talking roughly 250 available by mid to late September.

 

[Ian Hathaway]

The reason the Luftwaffe switched was because they were suffering dangerous losses of their own. If Dowding finds himself with 2 operational aircraft and the Luftwaffe has 24, Dowding still scores a definitive victory.

Not really, they switched because they foolishly believed they had beaten the RAF and were ready to move on to the next phase of the battle... hitting supply hubs and ports.