Northern Limit Line

[OAM47]

Ah, like what details? Because I don't want the readers to be unsatisfied

Well personally the details I would want would be the responses to the attacks we just had. I mean, the TL is Korea focused, for obvious reasons, but I personally prefer a global view. Beyond that, however, how the attacks are handled domestically can have *wide reaching* effects.

I'll use your mentions of Seattle as an example, since you gave a few details there. You said a quarantine is in effect, local National Guard are out, Canada doing increased border checks, etc. This is all well and good. However, for the story to be complete, I just feel as if there's some information between "smallpox attack" and "sudden quarantine" that could have really built tension, enhanced immersion, etc. If the attack really is bad, it's a reasonable step, but I think you have to give more details on how it's bad. Yes, on an intellectual level we all know that a bioweapon is pretty freaking bad, but we're talking about 5-6 digit figure casualties. It's naturally hard for humans to grasp that scale of events. Detail is needed or else you're basically making a list not a story.

I may believe these facts but can they really do it in a quick amount of time far from home?

The way I see it is these weren't done "quickly", but had been in place for years and were just waiting for a go word or some level of event to happen before they carry out the final step.

 

[zert]

Instead of less mega-tonnage nukes against cities, what of a series of tactical nukes used as a rolling barrage to take out more military sites and industrial sites?

 

[MrP]

At that moment, the red phone that was a direct hotline to Moscow rang, prompting the US president to pick up the phone. President Bush was already quite aware of what President Vladimir Putin was going to ask.

By comparison, I have a rather mundane complaint. The "hotline" actually reverted to a telex machine, so that mistranslations are less likely. Aside for one brief period the direct phone is just Hollywood

I'll second OAM47 in suggesting a correction to that part. The "red phone" is not a literal phone, nor is it in the White House. In 2002 it was a fax machine, and on the US end it was located at the Pentagon.

Written communication was deemed preferable to the oral kind for good reasons: it's easier to avoid misunderstandings and it allows time to ponder what the other side says. Let's keep in mind that US presidents as a rule aren't fluent in Russian, nor are Russian/Soviet leaders fluent in English, so it has to go through translators first.

 

[TickTock The Witch's Dead]

To put it simply? Yes. They can.

North Korea has proved to be extremely adaptable and quick in its actions. And the fact that no US spies have managed to enter North Korean society is another factor that comes into play. The US is absolutely in the dark because both South Korea and the US doesn't have intelligence within the DPRK government.

And by the time the war began, I'm pretty much certain that North Korea would have smuggled in weapons into various nations as a last resort. If this was like 2016, then I could see them attempting to use dirty bombs or nuclear weapons on various cities.

Then why have the defectors in your news links not pointed out those weapons?

 

[Remitonov]

I dunno... this is escalating to ASB levels. I already have doubts about North Korea's capabilities for biological attack (I mean, seriously? Global attacks? No failed attempts at such a massive scale?). Especially in the scare after 9/11, plenty would have easily been outed, and logistics for carrying out such attacks isn't exactly easy.

Also, you're underestimating how much information can leak into North Korea. People are watching South Korean dramas smuggled from China in secret. They generally know what's going on. It's just that the elites in Pyongyang have less reason to defect than rural folks. Now that they've officially made the world their enemy, it's a matter of time before we'll see mass surrenders as in the case of Okinawa. You don't piss off all five permanent members of the UN Security Council and expect to win.

 

[Faeelin]

Huh. I always thought the limit does not exist.

 

[mlp]

This TL has reached almost-ASB levels.
But I'll cut okmangeez some slack and let him do his shit. It's like Decisive Darkness Korea ver., some shit just needs to get on a literary level to be fun.

 

[Remitonov]

This TL has reached almost-ASB levels.
But I'll cut okmangeez some slack and let him do his shit. It's like Decisive Darkness Korea ver., some shit just needs to get on a literary level to be fun.

I guess as much. Also, I'm working on a post-war occupation map of North Korea. Just need to know which zones to delegate to which side.

 

[Zireael]

Haha, that freedom bay pic

Also, how the heck do the Norks have the resources to pull that off?

 

[mlp]

I guess as much. Also, I'm working on a post-war occupation map of North Korea. Just need to know which zones to delegate to which side.

If you ask me, most likely UN-occupied for the entirety, with troops from all major countries(as in, peacekeeping forces - so this means Bangledesh, Sweden, etc to pick the randomest) with each province receiving procedural industrialisation/de"juche"ification and becoming incorporated, starting from South Hwanghae/Gangwon. By no means is the world going to let China and Russia simply take portions of the country away.

 

[fluttersky]

By no means is the world going to let China and Russia simply take portions of the country away.

If China and Russia did just take portions of the country away, what is the West realistically going to do about it?

 

[mlp]

If China and Russia did just take portions of the country away, what is the West realistically going to do about it?

The river has been crossed where this is some regional conflict. The US, France and much more than just China and Russia have been affected. And in such a global conflict if the Russians or Chinese want to test waters in terms of what they can do in their own terms instead of going through the UN then they may reach a nasty surprise, which is: this is going to go through the UN. And that means the US will stop them.

 

[fluttersky]

The river has been crossed where this is some regional conflict. The US, France and much more than just China and Russia have been affected. And in such a global conflict if the Russians or Chinese want to test waters in terms of what they can do in their own terms instead of going through the UN then they may reach a nasty surprise, which is: this is going to go through the UN. And that means the US will stop them.

Problem is, the UN doesn't have much power. If China and Russia do just grab bits of North Korea, what's the UN going to do? Impose sanctions on them? It's difficult to criticize them for intervening when, you know, they've just been subject to massive terrorist attacks.

If China and Russia *don't* intervene, sooner or later Korea will be united and China will have a strong US ally on their doorstep. They obviously don't want that.

I suspect something like this might happen in the end:

 

[Gukpard]

I think it would be more realistic if it was written "integrated in south korea", it have been ten years since the war

 

[Thomas27]

I'm just wondering how North Korea have proceed to is bio-chemical attack?

 

[mlp]

Problem is, the UN doesn't have much power. If China and Russia do just grab bits of North Korea, what's the UN going to do? Impose sanctions on them? It's difficult to criticize them for intervening when, you know, they've just been subject to massive terrorist attacks.

If China and Russia *don't* intervene, sooner or later Korea will be united and China will have a strong US ally on their doorstep. They obviously don't want that.

I suspect something like this might happen in the end:

I just took my time and effort explaining why the international community as a whole has a take on this - and that includes France, which is still quite a relevant country. They're going to be pushing the pro-US vote against China and Russia. This is now a matter of national security and honour, relevant not only for China and Russia but for the entire world. There's a structure for this where the Chinese and Russians can talk or deal with this, and that's through the UN. Because whether they like it or not, the US is multiple times more powerful than them militarily and in a time like this, escalating tensions by conducting such acts would be just begging for it.

 

[fluttersky]

I just took my time and effort explaining why the international community as a whole has a take on this - and that includes France, which is still quite a relevant country. They're going to be pushing the pro-US vote against China and Russia. This is now a matter of national security and honour, relevant not only for China and Russia but for the entire world. There's a structure for this where the Chinese and Russians can talk or deal with this, and that's through the UN. Because whether they like it or not, the US is multiple times more powerful than them militarily and in a time like this, escalating tensions by conducting such acts would be just begging for it.

I'd like to point out that, in OTL, Russia has annexed Crimea, and de facto annexed the Donbass, Abkhazia, and South Ossetia. All of these annexations were against the wishes of the international community including the United States, but the international community didn't intervene.

Why? Because China and Russia are strong, nuclear, powers. They can ignore the US and the UN if they like.

You've explained that the United States and France would not be happy with a non-UN-sanctioned invasion of North Korea; I agree. You have not said what you think the US would do about it...

Are you trying to imply that the USA would directly engage in a ground war with Russia and China over the control of North Korea?

 

[mlp]

I'd like to point out that, in OTL, Russia has annexed Crimea, and de facto annexed the Donbass, Abkhazia, and South Ossetia. All of these annexations were against the wishes of the international community including the United States, but the international community didn't intervene.

Why? Because China and Russia are strong, nuclear, powers. They can ignore the US and the UN if they like.

You've explained that the United States and France would not be happy with a non-UN-sanctioned invasion of North Korea; I agree. You have not said what you think the US would do about it...

Are you trying to imply that the USA would directly engage in a ground war with Russia and China over the control of North Korea?

Because, unfortunately enough, the Ukraine, Armenia, Georgia and all others are small countries whose population doesn't exceed 10 million and have militaries and economies incomparable to that of Russia.
South Korea is a democratic republic of 50 million whose economic size and competence ranks one of the highest in the world, and wields a large(small only relatively to China and Japan) to Russia.
Furthermore all other regions have reasons why Russia'd want them - historic naval bases, oil reserves, etc. What does North Korea offer? Free labour? They could buy that shit much easier. Warm-water harbour? Vladivostok suits them extremely well for that situation.
The question on refugees concerns the Chinese as well. Why does the Chinese wish to meddle with a potential crisis, whether it be a riot, anarchy, food shortage or epidemic, for the sake of gaining a few more miles into the peninsula? So their map looks nicer?
The US does not leave its friends bound in blood alone. And South Korea has shared that fate for eight decades now. And South Korea has declared the entirety of the Korean peninsula its sovereign territory since 1948.
And yes, I'm definitely suggesting the US can engage in ground warfare over North Korea if the situation arises. Because even without them South Korea's going to do so anyway.

 

[Holy Mackerel]

Another divided occupation? Screw that. After Japanese imperialism the division between north and south was the greatest wound for the korean people's national psyche. North Korea's agression already got us pumped up you think the Korean people would accept the failure of unification after spilling so much blood? And with the ROK view of the north korean regime being a iligetimate gov. China and Russia unilaterally occupying northern korea is a grave violation of ROK territorial sovereignty. With the International community at a high level of consciousness you think China and Russia will try something like that? Do they want to piss the whole world off and make South Korea a permanent enemy? ITL I would advocate for total war against any and all enemies untill the whole of the Korean Peninsula is liberated.

 

[Kung Fucious]

I dunno... this is escalating to ASB levels. I already have doubts about North Korea's capabilities for biological attack (I mean, seriously? Global attacks? No failed attempts at such a massive scale?). Especially in the scare after 9/11, plenty would have easily been outed, and logistics for carrying out such attacks isn't exactly easy.

Also, you're underestimating how much information can leak into North Korea. People are watching South Korean dramas smuggled from China in secret. They generally know what's going on. It's just that the elites in Pyongyang have less reason to defect than rural folks. Now that they've officially made the world their enemy, it's a matter of time before we'll see mass surrenders as in the case of Okinawa. You don't piss off all five permanent members of the UN Security Council and expect to win.

This TL has reached almost-ASB levels.
But I'll cut okmangeez some slack and let him do his shit. It's like Decisive Darkness Korea ver., some shit just needs to get on a literary level to be fun.

Agreed. This TL is enjoyable and well written, but having North Korea pull off a mega-9/11 (up to and including attacking nominal allies for some reason) stretches plausibility well past the breaking point. The Norks may act crazy, but they're not stupid. Even if you handwave it away by saying "Oh they smuggled the WMD's in through Mexico!" (or whatever), you're still asking basically every first world intelligence agency on the planet to all simultaneously stick their heads in the sand. Attack Seoul or Japan? Sure. Attack a dozen major cities worldwide with zero detection? Not happening.

Did any NATO members invoke Article 5 over the attacks? Because the precedent has already been set (the US invoked it after 9/11), and this is basically 9/11 times a thousand (so, 911000).