Quite a simple WI. If for some reason Reuter did not scuttle his ships, such as Beatty not going out on exercises, what would happen to the German fleet? Would the Germans be allowed to keep some of their early Dreadnoughts? Who would get what? Would they be allowed to use it? Would France, Italy, or some other minor naval power choose to keep the Dreadnoughts? (The French would definitely keep a Bayern, maybe even a Hindenburg or Konig?)
No scuttling at Scapa Flow?
- Thread starter torten
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An "Accident" would happen to sink the entire High Sea Fleet right before any decision was made. Terribly tragic chaps, it's just a good thing no one was killed.
IMHO the Germans would not keep anything larger than a destroyer. The British would analyze the more modern ships, they might give some ships to Imperial naval forces, or sell some to friendly nations after other victors have had their share. Most of them probably will be scrapped, the guns might be used for some shore installations around the Empire. The problem with using any of the ships within the Imperial system or the guns at Imperial shore batteries is the fact that they are all metric, and so ammunition would be an issue. No reason to sink them, they have considerable value even as scrap and the UK (and other Entente countries) would love any cash they can get.
It occurs to me that the Germans might end up facing guns salvaged from the Hochseeflotte in fortifications built between the wars.
It occurs to me that the Germans might end up facing guns salvaged from the Hochseeflotte in fortifications built between the wars.
Aphrodite
Banned
Very true but the British have to be careful If they just sink the ships her former allies are likely to make her pay for such treachery and payment can get very expensive. Likely the least they would do is strip Britain of her colonial gains from the War.
What are they going to do? Pick a fight with the worlds largest empire and largest navy? France for one is in no condition to go for round two. Really no one is, but France is the best example on the 'winning side'.
Which is about as likely as England deciding the whole thing was a massive cockup and telling Germany she can have her fleet back.
Aphrodite
Banned
And what if they do? What can Britain do against the US, France and Italy- an alliance that has control over the continent? Trade with Europe ends immediately. Where will Britain get the raw materials
The British fleet might still be the biggest but its nothing compared to the combined might of France, Italy and the US. The British couldn't even keep the sealanes open against the Germans with the help of the French and the Italians. What are they going to do against an America with infinitely larger industrial capacity, access to the open seas that cant be bottled up at the channel and the North Sea, hundreds of surface vessels to be used as commerce raiders
Given some of the flimsy excuses countries used to go to war- the Battleship Maine would be a prime example- such a deliberate provocation would open the British Empire to partition- and the Irish American voters are likely to cheer it on
So France, after being absolutely devastated, is going to start a war with her former ally over a dozen sunk capital ships of a third party? America, after waking up with a sour taste in her mouth from the night before, is going to go back to war because France got pissy and arrogant? I don't think so. At best you'd end up with France and Italy vs England, and if they are stupid enough to go to war over this, frankly, they deserve to lose their colonial empires.
SsgtC
Banned
Yeah, but I doubt anyone in 1918 went, "hang on a second guys, we should sink these ships so we have a source of radiation free metal to build satellites with."
Aphrodite
Banned
If the British think that they get to unilaterally write the peace treaty and impose their will upon their former allies, they might want to consider the possible consequences. Of course, the US was never allied to Britain being only a cobelligerent
Given that the British little problem playing the Germans off against their former allies, I don't understand why you would be shocked that the others might do the same
It was very convenient that they got sunk. Maybe Beatty knew, and decided it would be better if the German fleet did sink. Anyway, ignoring that, the Nassau class, and the Helgoland class, the ships which weren't at Scapa flow were all scrapped or destroyed, so with such a fate in OTL, the chances of them surviving in this timeline are nill, unless they end up with a minor naval power such as Greece, or some are retained by the Germans. The Kaiser class are little better, if not worse than what the French and Italians already have, so they will likely end up scrapped. The Konig class are pretty decent, and are a bit better than the Courbet class, and some of the Italian Dreadnoughts, so might be retained, depending on the political decisions at the time. The SMS Baden was used for trials and as a target ship by the British, the Americans and maybe the Japanese would do the same if they got one, but in the unlikely event of France recieving SMS Bayern, for example, I could see them taking it into service. SMS Sachsen and SMS Württemberg were under construction and OTL were scrapped in Germany. Neither France or Italy would mind an uncompleted hull, but the chances of the Germans handing it over intact without some form of sabotage are weak indeed.
Indeed. And rebuilt heavily too.We need a wanky TL where all this perfectly good battlecruisers and battleships are preserved and sold to a foreign country (Musketeer513 would like it, really)
Though I would fully support it if The Grand Old Lady met The Iron Dog in a battle.
If the US Navy received a handful of ex-German capital ships and a pair of Zeppelins, they would need to learn how to make ammo and spare parts, overhaul engines, etc. Ergo US Navy Yards adopted metric tools decades ahead of the rest of the USA.
Would the USN lead the American conversion to SI metric units?
Would the USN lead the American conversion to SI metric units?
Why would the USN want some used Battleships for anything for more than testing purposes? They would be non standard, and the Colorado's and South Dakota's on order are far better. The French and Italians are the ones who might consider taking ships into service, especially the Bayerns and the Battlecruisers, and maybe even the Konig's.
The thing is, I can't see the Germans being that co-operative. You might get technical drawings, and possibly some bits made, but I could imagine the French getting very jumpy if the saw that the Germans were using it as a opportunity to keep a skill base alive. Of course, if the Germans get to keep some of the older dreadnoughts, then it might not be such a concern, but on the other hand, apart from the French or Italians, who else would want old German ships. The Greeks might like one or two, if it is cheap enough, but then wouldn't it be simpler to approach the British government, and ask to buy, say HMS Erin, on the grounds that shells are likely be easier to obtain and Vickers/Armstrong Whitworth more likely to provide support than the Germans.
I think the majority of the HSF will be scrapped, but some might survive IF
a) A major war breaks out before 1920
b) The French or Italians keep one or two of the more modern ships (And they would have to survive ITTL Washington Naval treaty.)
c) Some other country buys one. Poland? Greece? Yugoslavia? Spain? Finland? Sweden? And of course, it needs to have something over available British ships, which the British government may have been in the mood to sell.