No Ottoman Empire: What happens in Germany? The Balkans?

Hermanubis said:
Hey, I know this is way out there, but some of the ideas in this thread got me thinking, and well, I made this map…

The "way out there" part is having the Empire conquer so much territory it had never held, even in the Ukraine (!). It would be far more sensible, if they somehow were able to scrape together that much power, to regain Anatolia and thus restore a reasonable strategic posture rather than dissipating their strength on desolate steppeland that they have no hope of defending.
 
Abdul Hadi Pasha said:
The "way out there" part is having the Empire conquer so much territory it had never held, even in the Ukraine (!). It would be far more sensible, if they somehow were able to scrape together that much power, to regain Anatolia and thus restore a reasonable strategic posture rather than dissipating their strength on desolate steppeland that they have no hope of defending.
Yes, yes, just thinking out loud, I guess…
 
Abdul Hadi Pasha said:
When you say "albeit requiring significant luck", I would have to interpret "luck" as every Serb, Bulgarian, and Venetian simultaneously nick themselves shaving and die of gangrene. It would require the rest of the world to stand still while the Byzantines picked off everyone around them, and that just won't happen. The remaining territories were too devastated, the military too weak due to too small a recruiting base, the ruling elite too divided, etc, etc. I think the VERY latest POD would have to be in the later 1200s and would require a lot of fortunate things to happen. By the civil wars of the 14th c do little was left that there was just not enough to fend off the inevitable. All the trade was in the hands of Galata, and the remaining lands were scattered and indefensible, with the exception of the capital itself, soon to be vulnerable to cannon.

The one issue with this scenario is that it presumes the Serbs, Bulgars, Venetians, and everyone else would focus most of their energy on subduing the Byzantines, instead of fighting each other, or having a situation where one of them gets too powerful, resulting in shifting of alliances. While getting Byzantium to pre-1204 levels would be next to impossible without something akin to divine intervention, it does not seem too far-fetched if the Byzantines regain OTL modern-day Greek territory with few modifications to account for them only holding coastal areas, plus coastal parts of Smyrna - thus they are strong enough to fend for themselves and not to fall to any of the rival powers, but not strong enough to cause mischief and to shift the overall balance.

And while the Byzantine trading income diminished during the XIVth century, there are indeed attestations that even during the reign of Andronicus III, the Empire was still capable of both raising significant manpower (Andronicus' army as he marched against his grandfather is said to have numbered aroud 50,000 or so men), and still in possession of somewhat significant wealth (again, Andronicus was described as being "Europe's richest suzerain" in terms of having the higher income than most other kings). Thus, as late as 1340s the resources for a potential rebound seem to still have been there.

Now, a word of caution on the previous paragraph. My source on that is Edward Gibbon, and I am not sure how much of an authority he should be considered on all things Byzantine. I recall reading a number of other sources having to do with economic life in XIVth century Byzantium, but unfortunately do not remember the exact references off the top of my head - all, however, describe a society that, from economic standpoint, was on par with most European ones of the time.
 
Gibbon certainly would not be your best bet for economic history, although he still hasn't been topped in quality of prose, and never will be.

50,000 for an army in Andronicus' day is almost certainly an exaggeration - even Ottoman armies 100 years later were rarely that big.

The problem with the Byzantines is their unfortunate location. Other than Constantinople itself, their territory is just indefensible. The Ottomans at their height had trouble holding the Morea against the Venetians, the Asiatic coast of Asia Minor is indefensible agaisnt the interior (which is why the ubiquitous Greek gain of this region after WWI in ATLs is silly), Thrace is easily attacked from just about every direction, etc. When eastern Anatolia was lost, the empire lost it's strong strategic frontier, as well as it's recruiting grounds, and ceased to be a major power. Beyond that, the sack of Constantinople destroyed the bureaucracy that had separated the Byzantines from a Feudal principality, which is all they were afterwards. Compared to the rising might of Serbia, Byzantine military resources are minute, and the same applies to Bulgaria, Venice, and the Ottomans. But the Byzantines are in the middle, and they have what everyone else wants. I'm all for the underdog, and I love the Byzantines second only to you know who, but a recovery in 1350ish just isn't possible without a large series of miracles, in my always incredibly humble opinion.

midgardmetal said:
The one issue with this scenario is that it presumes the Serbs, Bulgars, Venetians, and everyone else would focus most of their energy on subduing the Byzantines, instead of fighting each other, or having a situation where one of them gets too powerful, resulting in shifting of alliances. While getting Byzantium to pre-1204 levels would be next to impossible without something akin to divine intervention, it does not seem too far-fetched if the Byzantines regain OTL modern-day Greek territory with few modifications to account for them only holding coastal areas, plus coastal parts of Smyrna - thus they are strong enough to fend for themselves and not to fall to any of the rival powers, but not strong enough to cause mischief and to shift the overall balance.

And while the Byzantine trading income diminished during the XIVth century, there are indeed attestations that even during the reign of Andronicus III, the Empire was still capable of both raising significant manpower (Andronicus' army as he marched against his grandfather is said to have numbered aroud 50,000 or so men), and still in possession of somewhat significant wealth (again, Andronicus was described as being "Europe's richest suzerain" in terms of having the higher income than most other kings). Thus, as late as 1340s the resources for a potential rebound seem to still have been there.

Now, a word of caution on the previous paragraph. My source on that is Edward Gibbon, and I am not sure how much of an authority he should be considered on all things Byzantine. I recall reading a number of other sources having to do with economic life in XIVth century Byzantium, but unfortunately do not remember the exact references off the top of my head - all, however, describe a society that, from economic standpoint, was on par with most European ones of the time.
 

Faeelin

Banned
Abdul Hadi Pasha said:
The "way out there" part is having the Empire conquer so much territory it had never held, even in the Ukraine (!).

What better place to settle the Turkish marchers?
 
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