Europe would not embrace segregationist laws against Jews in a non-Nazi timeline, if Jews are legally discriminated against it will be because of assimilationist laws. But most likely outside some laws in a few countries against kosher and circumcising the discrimination against them will be mainly by non-government actors.
No Nazis but continued antisemitism on the European Continent, what happens?
- Thread starter AlexanderDragon
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Europe would not embrace segregationist laws against Jews in a non-Nazi timeline, if Jews are legally discriminated against it will be because of assimilationist laws. But most likely outside some laws in a few countries against kosher and circumcising the discrimination against them will be mainly by non-government actors.
I disagree at least for Western Europe. The civil rights of Jews in Western Europe were a part of the whole package of liberal basic rights that were introduced in the long liberal struggle for democratic reforms during the 19th century. As long as these countries keep democratic institutions it will be hard to strip the Jews of their civil rights, because there would be many different forces like classic liberals, socialist and other minority religious groups opposed for their own unique reasons.
That’s different from the relative consensus in the Southern states of the USA about the fact that integration of the black people was undesirable. This lead to the Jim Crow laws there. In Europe that consensus is missing.
Maybe not. But Jewish immigration numbers were at a level (Jews were already a majority in several northern areas) that I think the formation of some kind of Israeli state was probable.
A bigger diaspora certainly but a much poorer and more marginalised diaspora too, particularly Eastern European Jews living in Poland and Russia. Then again, these groups made up most of the Kibbutzim, so who knows. Tourism will certainly be a big draw.
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“Every school child knows that there is no such thing in history as a final arrangement — not with regard to the regime, not with regard to borders, and not with regard to international agreements.”
— Ben Gurion, War Diaries, 12/03/1947 following Israel’s “acceptance” of the U.N. Partition of 11/29/1947 (Simha Flapan, “Birth of Israel,” p.13)
Partition: “after the formation of a large army in the wake of the establishment of the state, we will abolish partition and expand to the whole of Palestine “
— Ben Gurion, p.22 “The Birth of Israel, 1987” Simha Flapan.
“The acceptance of partition does not commit us to renounce Transjordan. One does not demand from anybody to give up his vision. We shall accept a state in the boundaries fixed today — but the boundaries of Zionist aspirations are the concerns of the Jewish people and no external factor will be able to limit them.” P. 53, “The Birth of Israel, 1987” Simha Flapan
Oh look it is basically my story 😯
I feel like a big question when it comes to an alternate Israel is where its possible demographic basis from. One side-effect of the Holocaust targeting Jews so thoroughly was that it was indiscriminate, so when the mass emigrations began, you had Jews from all strata of society, making it easy to make a new state. Without it, while I agree on a continuous but smaller Jewish emigration to Palestine, it likely wouldn't include the more educated and Western Jews who really helped kick-start Israel, but rather many of the ones from Eastern Europe, since educated Jews facing antisemitism in Europe were more likely to go to America or even just convert over moving to a British mandate.
Depending on the relations between Britain and France and the push towards decolonisation, I could perhaps see the two conspire to form a Greater Israel incorporating the Peel Plan (North Israel) plus Lebanon, which had a large Christian population of various denominations. This state would be under their shared influence and the presence of so many other groups might actually help birth a modern secular state in the region. It would also let them decolonise without fully leaving the region.
Without that kind of "rabbit out of the hat" plan, I honestly don't see an Israel forming, or at least not surviving very long if it did. Personally I'd expect, or at least hope for, Palestine to end up more like Singapore or Hong Kong; possessing a diverse population and an inroad to the region, while also following its own path.
Sorry to nitpick but how do you mean “grouped together”? Because an alliance between the Nazis and the Communists (whatever delusions Strasser and Goebbels might have harboured) was unlikely IMO.
I expect that Poland will see a similar shift from land to city as northwestern Europe did. As such I expect that many poorer Jews will end up as industrial workers and they will see similar rising living standards as the industrial workers in northwestern Europe.
Well, I'd be willing to bet that Yiddish and Eastern European Jewish culture and customs would occupy a greater portion of the Jewish community than IOTL. Should an Israeli state exist, there could potentially be a dual use of Yiddish and Hebrew, though a no Holocaust scenario puts the existence of Israel into question and that is a whole other can of worms. In any case, I think a world where the Yiddish language and culture is more prominent is an interesting one.
Unfortunately, this also means that anti-semitism isn't the poisoned chalice it became IOTL, to be avoided by most respectable mainstream politicians. This opens the pathway to anti-semitism being more prevalent and acceptable, both on a societal and individual level. In the unlikely scenario that map changes happen in Europe roughly like they did IOTL, I could see an increased wave of violence and even pogroms in Eastern Europe against Jews after the fall of communism, with many a politician claiming that the fall was all because of the 'insidious Jews'.
Unfortunately, this also means that anti-semitism isn't the poisoned chalice it became IOTL, to be avoided by most respectable mainstream politicians. This opens the pathway to anti-semitism being more prevalent and acceptable, both on a societal and individual level. In the unlikely scenario that map changes happen in Europe roughly like they did IOTL, I could see an increased wave of violence and even pogroms in Eastern Europe against Jews after the fall of communism, with many a politician claiming that the fall was all because of the 'insidious Jews'.
I think that antisemitism will look very much like what we see in France among the non-Muslim French. Yes it exists but it won’t be major issue. As a Jew you may sometime run into a asshole who don’t shut up, but mostly it will something people talks about outside the company of Jews.
As for USSR without the War, it will have a significant different history. USSR will have a lot more Russians and Ukrainian and Belarusian identities will be much weaker. At the same time it will lack OTL strong Baltic independence movements, at the same time Soviet Germans and Jews two strongly loyalist minorities will be significant bigger. So the demographic shift which also was part of reason for the collapse of USSR will be weaker. Without the War USSR will also be much weaker Russian nationalist. Without OTL satellite states USSR will also not have OTL money drain from having to occupy these states [1], USSR won’t have OTL arms race with USA. Most important a richer Europe means a bigger market for Soviet raw materials. So USSR will quite likely be able to make a shift away from a planned economy and they will likely do so earlier.
[1] While the vassals were economic bonus early in the Cold War, they had become a drain in the late Cold War.
Before 1939 Jews in Poland already had high urbanization rate: 70% of them lived in cities, where population of Poland as whole was still 70% rural.
Is the POD no nazis or no WW2? If there are no nazis but WW2 still occurs do the Germans get crushed again with out a Hitler messing up the army's plans? If they do then the Russian advance throughout eastern Europe , Stalin's desire to oust the British from the mid east and his own hatred of Jews means there will be mass immigration of Jews to Israel. America and Canada will not want " anarcho-Bolshevists" that IOTL prompted he none is too many outlook on Jewish immigration. In OTL Stalin used the Jewish angle to undermine many communist leaders in Eastern Europe ( and kill them) at the same time pushing a narrative to locals that they were saved from perfidious Jews pretending to be true communists. If the Commies are really devious they would clandestinely help /force a mass migration of Jews into Israel to mess with Britain.
Wow, a lot of good thoughts! And I thought this post was a dud when I made it lol.
anyways, about the nazis let's say they do come to power but Hitler is assassinated in 37. So nuremberg still exists and will be a inspiration to Poland and Lithuania as they fall deeper into fascism. The big question concerning palestine id say is if the British government would soften at all on Jewish emigration from those countries, id assume the mandate still has thirty or so years left.
anyways, about the nazis let's say they do come to power but Hitler is assassinated in 37. So nuremberg still exists and will be a inspiration to Poland and Lithuania as they fall deeper into fascism. The big question concerning palestine id say is if the British government would soften at all on Jewish emigration from those countries, id assume the mandate still has thirty or so years left.
Without any form of NatSoc ideology in place ever or other spectacular atrocities, western views on jews probably end up developing more like OTL european views on roma. They're a minority that existd, aren't really integrated that well and regularly discriminated against iinformally n most places. even in 2023
Why is there an assumption that without the Nazis political antisemitism would be business as usual rather than escalate? Some of these scenarios indicate Jews willing to be slave labour and penal battalions. I would think the prospect would send them looking for anywhere but Europe. Clandestine immigration to the holy land was already a thing after the various white papers. I suspect the US would still loot Europe's Jewish scientists so no German A bombs . As for Israel becoming a Polish project, Sephardi Jews were also Zionists and European antisemitism had already made inroads into Arab society by this time.
Because the few European and European descend countries with significant surviving Jewish population like USA, UK, France, and USSR, antisemitism did deescalate, and it was something we had seen for decades until the rise of the Nazi. Of course nothing is given, a good question is how Jewish populations in Europe develops. Large influx of Jewish guest workers from Poland to Western Europe could result in increased antisemitism [1]. It’s also a question how Hasidic culture and population develops in a world without a Holocaust.
All in all there no one model for how Jewish demography and culture would develop and how people would react to them. People may compare them with Muslims, but much of the backlash against Muslim immigrants has come having to deal with Islamic terrorism, we’re unlikely to see something similar with Jewish minorities. Of course, that doesn’t mean we won’t see increased antisemitism but the question is whether it will be a fringe political phenomena or become major source of political friction.
[1] But this is not given, there were plenty of immigrants groups where any backlash toward them only lasted very shortly. We could very well see Jews just be one immigrant group among many and as such mostly being ignored.
Please keep computer sim related speculation in the appropriate Forums (hint: this isn't one of them).
What's with this "Poland hates the Jews" of yours? While there was an antisemitism within interwar Poland during the 1930s, it never went down to any expulsions or physical violence.
When it comes to the attitude of Poles during ww2, people fail to realise what kind of circumstances there were in Poland. To put it shortly, the occupation of western Europe by the III Reich was like a vacation in comparison to what had been happening in Poland. For any Pole, merely going out of your home involved the risk of getting shot or captured for slave labor, and Poland was the only occupied place where for hiding a Jew the Germans introduced the automatic death penalty for you and your whole family. Under those extreme circumstances, some Poles used to snitch on the Jews, but simply to survive. And the similar attitude was among the Jews too. The german-established Jewish Ghetto Police acted towards its countrymen within the Ghettos with an extreme cruelty, based on the assumption "Better them than me".
As for the antisemitism in Eastern Europe in general... Now, let me underline something right now: the conspiracy theories about the Jews being the masterminds behind communism are nothing but a piece of bullsh*t. But it doesn't change the fact that a lot of Jews openly worshipped communism. They just assumed that any nationalism is for them a potential threat, and that only the international communist order is a place in which their safety might be guaranteed. As such, wherever the bolshevik invaders came in 1939-1940, the Jews were welcoming the Soviets with flowers and applause, to the shock of the people whom the Soviets terrorized. The jewish collaboration with the Soviets was common, and it's no surprise that when the Germans attacked the USSR, the people from the soviet-occupied areas assisted the Germans in the pogroms upon the Jews (I'm not glorifying it, just to be clear).
To add something to the general discussion: if Germany doesn't start ww2, then the Soviet Union won't be encouraged to make its own expansion. As such, the Jews won't have the occasion to collaborate with the Soviets, and thus the antisemitism won't be as popular in Eastern Europe as in OTL.