No Naval Treaties 1922/30/36? Consequences & build your own navy fleet.

What would be the consequences of not having the 1922/30/36 Naval Treaties regarding the treaty signing powers?
What navies would benefit?
What navies would lose out?

Plus

Feel free to build your own ATL naval fleet in this scenario by picking a naval power with your own ships & in what numbers?
 
Last edited:
No Navies? Lets try no armies instead...

In WW1, much grief was wrought by armies. Sure, it might have gotten a bit triggered due to naval races, but said shenanigans paled compared to the battle Verdun or other places on land at the time.

In comparison to human toll with the land armies, the at sea toll was a drop in the bucket figuratively speaking.

My alternative is simple: Limit army sizes to what is absolutely needed for a given country and curtail capital ship construction to the tune of one every two years from government yards only.

The ideal would be to completely axe capital ship construction entirely and let nations focus on Cruisers of Maximum 8"/203mm/20.3cm size for guns while limiting to a maximum of 15,000 tons.

The result in general would be that everyone feels moderately safe and secure and no one feels too bent out of shape about things, except the big ship enthusiasts.

Barring the idea of cruisers and below allowed, and accepting that capital ships somehow needed to be in the equation; I would suggest the above as a way to go about doing it. This would allow dockyards to have some big ship industry continuing, therefore saving parts of infrastructure for ship building.

OTL, Britain suffered a bit getting yards back online because of the outright stoppage of ship construction; which also includes things like high grade engines, boilers and big guns.

With this option I've presented, countries continue to be able to build new ships, but at a slowed rate. Keeps the industry structure there and in place, but not the production rate. Also encourages nations to retain a few ship yards as national yards.

Any ship older than 20 years would be recycled/scrapped unless it is of special mention [aka museumized].

HMS Dreadnaught [First of type]

Mikasa [Tsushima]

USS South Carolina [first superfiring]

As examples.

Yes, I realize that most nations at the time were not necessarily all that forward thinking and were looking at the here and now, but my thinking is that museumizing those two ships that did not get that OTL would be a good thing a few generations down the road.

In the case of the British, a backroom deal would be done to make certain that the RN could afford to museumize Dreadnaught.

Basically, the tldr here is that by focusing most of the limitations onto the army sizes and army tech, most of the nations come away far happier being able to build cruisers to their preference.

Besides, Cruisers and destroyers are the main workhorses of any navy

If none of the treaty powers had any navies, I don't think there would even be a treaty.

Britain relies too much on global trade as does Japan; both those countries would like walk out before accepting a full no navy treaty.

Focusing on tonnage and gun size limit, allow cruisers and the like. Limit capital ships to 1 every two years, allowing the industry to retain some capacity.

Formalize the "qualitative race" to a hard limit of 18". RN was going up in gun size 1.5" for the US/Japan's 2" increments.

US: 12"!

RN: 13.5"!

US/IJN: 14"!

RN: 15"!

US/IJN: 16"!

RN: 16.5"! [Secret 18" work...]

US/IJN: 18", final offer.

RN: Done!

I fully expect to see a lot of discussion and references to previous threads on this subject.

My overall point is that armies kill each other far more impactfully than ships; but because of the value factor with the ships, prestige is given to the naval side while the army issue tend to be kept under the rug. Therefore, one should impose greater limits on armies operating than navies, because armies have great impact on the land.

And I'll let others play the numbers game with the fleets.
 
The big three navies would all build more, the French and Italians would lose out. Depends on what the first round of construction (for all three) is, and that will determine the next round...
 
I think the Great Kanto Earthquake would see USA and UK pull ahead of Japan in any naval arms race.

This would leave Japan scrambling to catch up or locked into an alternate Treaty reflecting their inferior position.
 
To a degree, I would agree that the Kanto quake would've forced some sort of agreement on Naval units, but at the same, possibly encouraging the same sort of nationalism to spread as in OTL...
My mind makes the focal point of that nationalism movement to be the ToV talks where the Japanese equality clause proposal [no matter how it was designed or worded] was shunted aside due to the general nationalism/racism that pervaded the world at the time. I realize its not the topic here, but that passing goes a long way to mollifying the extremists.

Anyway, I still think that giving people unlimited cruisers is a good idea.

Why were capital ships so important to countries at that time? Did the citizen on the street really care about having a battleship versus 3 cruisers at that time or was it simply a game of politics and pride?
 
Everyone knew what the battleships were. It was a headline item.

No one knew or cared about cruisers, destroyers and submarines to the same extent.

Armoured cruisers and battlecruisers counted as capital ships at various points but protected and light cruisers weren't treated the same.

I remember 1 year Churchill (I think it was 1912 or 1913 budgets) got x battleships approved. He then tried to get that converted into x-1 battleships and a battleship worth of cruisers and submarines and failed.
 
Assuming no 1922 treaty, are there more hulls, with more work invested into them, to be affected by the Kanto quake?
 
Assuming no 1922 treaty, are there more hulls, with more work invested into them, to be affected by the Kanto quake?
No 1922 Treaty and Amagi is launched and doesn't get seriously damaged, as she is in the water and not on the stocks. Owari is destroyed instead and some of the long lead materials for ship #13 are destroyed

You might have an extra light cruiser of the Sendai class destroyed, I don't know which shipyard got the contracts, OTL Naka was destroyed and relaid as she was at Yokohama.
 
Britain will comfortably replace the 12" Dreadnoughts with 4 G3 and then the 13.5" Super-Dreadnoughts with 4 N3. No Kent class built. RN will be 14BB (4 N3, 5 QE, 5 R) and 8BC (4 G3, 1 Hood, 2 Renown, 1 Tiger) - 22 total

The USN will probably complete 4 Colorado, 4 South Dakota's and 4 Lexingtons. 2 Lexingtons and 2 SD cancelled for cost reasons and to build 2 carriers. CA built as the Lexingtons are too expensive. USN will be 25BB (8 16", 9 14", 8 12"/14") and 4 Lexington (29 total). US will keep ships older than the New York/Texas to form a 3rd squadron. The USN will struggle for funding fast battleships but may get 4 18" improved South Dakotas so its 1st Squadron 4SD and 4 imp-SD, 2nd Squadron 4 Colorado, 2 Tennessee, 2 Idaho + Flagship. 2 Pennsylvania, Nevadas and older ships scrapped.

Japan will complete 2 Tosa and 4 Amagi for a 4:4 Fleet or 8:8 if including the 14" gunned ships. The Kii class would be cancelled due to funding problems but then the replacements for the Kongos will start building 2-3 years after the 1923 earthquake. Japan wont build CA bigger than Furtakas. IJN will be 8BB and 8BC 16 total. All older ships will be scrapped.
 
Honestly I don't care about the specific ships. I just want to see a massively expensive naval race in the 1920s brought to a crashing halt in the 1930s.

The Brits know what they want and need and this last great spurt of naval development should get them a core of ships embodying the lessons of WWI. The battle cruisers and carriers most know. But who remembers the G3 program included enough pompoms and directors to get some mass production going? Things like that which will tide the nation over into the 40s.

The US don't know what they want and need and will overspend on a fleet of freaks till their politicians tell them to stop it. Possibly before they can use the lessons learnt. But, who cares? The US can afford it. It will build institutional knowledge for when it needs to build a modern fleet.

Japan will just finacially wreck itself. I am not sure that there is any bad side here. Either the civilians will have enough and pull the nation back from the brink, or the military will dominate and the OTL will happen anyway. A couple of big, under armored battleships won't make a difference.
 
Britain will comfortably replace the 12" Dreadnoughts with 4 G3 and then the 13.5" Super-Dreadnoughts with 4 N3. No Kent class built. RN will be 14BB (4 N3, 5 QE, 5 R) and 8BC (4 G3, 1 Hood, 2 Renown, 1 Tiger) - 22 total

The USN will probably complete 4 Colorado, 4 South Dakota's and 4 Lexingtons. 2 Lexingtons and 2 SD cancelled for cost reasons and to build 2 carriers. CA built as the Lexingtons are too expensive. USN will be 25BB (8 16", 9 14", 8 12"/14") and 4 Lexington (29 total). US will keep ships older than the New York/Texas to form a 3rd squadron. The USN will struggle for funding fast battleships but may get 4 18" improved South Dakotas so its 1st Squadron 4SD and 4 imp-SD, 2nd Squadron 4 Colorado, 2 Tennessee, 2 Idaho + Flagship. 2 Pennsylvania, Nevadas and older ships scrapped.

Japan will complete 2 Tosa and 4 Amagi for a 4:4 Fleet or 8:8 if including the 14" gunned ships. The Kii class would be cancelled due to funding problems but then the replacements for the Kongos will start building 2-3 years after the 1923 earthquake. Japan wont build CA bigger than Furtakas. IJN will be 8BB and 8BC 16 total. All older ships will be scrapped.

If the IJN has a fleet of 16 capital ships and the USN has 29 capital ships then there is no way the RN can only have 22 capital ships to counter them alongside it's European commitments.

You would probably see the 13.5" ships kept in service until another class of improved G3 type are added.

Proto Nelson class battle ships would be in production as well to replace the 13.5" battleships and eventually the R Class.

22 capital ships for the RN is too thin a margin for the world's only truly global navy. If the IJN and USN are keeping the older ships in service to bolster numbers then all of the 13.5" ships have to be kept in service.
 
Single G3s were replacing squadrons of 12" ships. That was their financial job. N3s (whether 18" or modified G3) replace the 13" for similar reasons. These are cost saving ships a generation ahead of the US and Japan.

From the point of view of the RN and Treasury you want the IJN and USN to over commit in the 20s. Chains of gold. The foreign office has made it clear for 30 years that war against the US is impossible and other means should be used. Japan has hard limits and is a good stalking horse against Treasury which is how we got Singapore and the Counties.

The public are the wrinkle that need to be kept in line. The money needs to go on more world wide oil bunkers, Singapore, and more imperial docks that can accept modern battleships. No more "we want eight!"
 
If the IJN has a fleet of 16 capital ships and the USN has 29 capital ships then there is no way the RN can only have 22 capital ships to counter them alongside it's European commitments.

You would probably see the 13.5" ships kept in service until another class of improved G3 type are added.

Proto Nelson class battle ships would be in production as well to replace the 13.5" battleships and eventually the R Class.

22 capital ships for the RN is too thin a margin for the world's only truly global navy. If the IJN and USN are keeping the older ships in service to bolster numbers then all of the 13.5" ships have to be kept in service.
The RN could keep 7 remaining 13.5" ships in reserve to counter the US total of 29 (ie partity). They are a match for anything in Europe but wouldn't survive long against modern ships. It may be more prudent to keep Japan in the A-J Alliance and not antagonize the US with more than an 8 ship superiority ie (22RN+16IJN=38 vs USN29). GB will want to pursue a lean naval policy that would surrender superiority to the US under certain circumstances. Even if the treaties failed, GB would hold out hope for a solution and not seek to 5hit in any nests. At least this keeps the armour/armament industries ticking over. Without the treaties, Battleships are 50,000tons 23 knots and 18" guns.
 
Britain will comfortably replace the 12" Dreadnoughts with 4 G3 and then the 13.5" Super-Dreadnoughts with 4 N3. No Kent class built. RN will be 14BB (4 N3, 5 QE, 5 R) and 8BC (4 G3, 1 Hood, 2 Renown, 1 Tiger) - 22 total

The USN will probably complete 4 Colorado, 4 South Dakota's and 4 Lexingtons. 2 Lexingtons and 2 SD cancelled for cost reasons and to build 2 carriers. CA built as the Lexingtons are too expensive. USN will be 25BB (8 16", 9 14", 8 12"/14") and 4 Lexington (29 total). US will keep ships older than the New York/Texas to form a 3rd squadron. The USN will struggle for funding fast battleships but may get 4 18" improved South Dakotas so its 1st Squadron 4SD and 4 imp-SD, 2nd Squadron 4 Colorado, 2 Tennessee, 2 Idaho + Flagship. 2 Pennsylvania, Nevadas and older ships scrapped.

Japan will complete 2 Tosa and 4 Amagi for a 4:4 Fleet or 8:8 if including the 14" gunned ships. The Kii class would be cancelled due to funding problems but then the replacements for the Kongos will start building 2-3 years after the 1923 earthquake. Japan wont build CA bigger than Furtakas. IJN will be 8BB and 8BC 16 total. All older ships will be scrapped.
Would they really scrap anything not completely worn out? Looking at pre WW1 and post WW2 for example mothball reserve fleets are very cheap if you just keep ships at anchor with no crew and minimal work yes they are not very useful quickly, but they would provide a wartime reserve that could be used for 3rd rate missions at low cost, so I can see them keeping the 13.5" BB ships, they can easily hurt anything in Europe (ie all the older French and Italian Dreadnoughts) so if you do need to fight a war in the east thy could be prepared for action again and defend UK somewhat at least until the European power start building modern ships in 30s.
If the IJN has a fleet of 16 capital ships and the USN has 29 capital ships then there is no way the RN can only have 22 capital ships to counter them alongside it's European commitments.
Is it not more what ratio v IJN and the European powers the RN will want to accept? After IJN stops after it runs out of money? Even if RNs G3/N3 (and The N3s might be 16" ships or a 2nd set of G3s to stop the USN/IJN going to 18" in some unofficial deal) are far better than the IJN ships they will want more than the combined IJN and any single European power if not more than that to make up for some in dry dock at any time.
Single G3s were replacing squadrons of 12" ships. That was their financial job. N3s (whether 18" or modified G3) replace the 13" for similar reasons.
Was it 1 ship for 4? For example A G3 had say a 1700 design crew v 784 up to 1000 in wartime of I class. (numbers from wiki)

They were planning on building 4 G3s, but what are they replacing, the 3x 12"BC HMS Inflexible, HMS Indomitable, HMS New Zealand + 9x 12" BB HMS Dreadnought, Bellerophon, Temeraire, Superb, St Vincent, Collingwood, Neptune, Colossus & Hercules so 12 ships for 4 should save plenty of money on crew especially?
 
Last edited:
What would be the consequences of not having the 1922/30/36 Naval Treaties regarding the treaty signing powers?
What navies would benefit?
What navies would lose out?
The main winners are USN/RN everybody else loses assuming it doesn't change the diplomatic alignments of OTL WWII.... they simply build and keep far more ships slowly and cheaply in 20s/early 30s and thus are in a far better position as well as having stronger defence industrial bases.
 

Driftless

Donor
Might the US (or the RN?) put some money into fleet tankers or other auxiliaries? I'm thinking partial subsidy, with the wartime right-of-navy-use caveat.
 
Last edited:
Would they really scrap anything not completely worn out? Looking at pre WW1 and post WW2 for example mothball reserve fleets are very cheap if you just keep ships at anchor with no crew and minimal work yes they are not very useful quickly, but they would provide a wartime reserve that could be used for 3rd rate missions at low cost, so I can see them keeping the 13.5" BB ships, they can easily hurt anything in Europe (ie all the older French and Italian Dreadnoughts) so if you do need to fight a war in the east thy could be prepared for action again and defend UK somewhat at least until the European power start building modern ships in 30s.

Is it not more what ratio v IJN and the European powers the RN will want to accept? After IJN stops after it runs out of money? Even if RNs G3/N3 (and The N3s might be 16" ships or a 2nd set of G3s to stop the USN/IJN going to 18" in some unofficial deal) are far better than the IJN ships they will want more than the combined IJN and any single European power if not more than that to make up for some in dry dock at any time.

Was it 1 ship for 4? For example A G3 had say a 1700 design crew v 784 up to 1000 in wartime of I class. (numbers from wiki)

They were planning on building 4 G3s, but what are they replacing, the 3x 12"BC HMS Inflexible, HMS Indomitable, HMS New Zealand + 9x 12" BB HMS Dreadnought, Bellerophon, Temeraire, Superb, St Vincent, Collingwood, Neptune, Colossus & Hercules so 12 ships for 4 should save plenty of money on crew especially?
1 for 4 sounds familiar. All I have handy and searchable is the WTRE which mixes reality and fiction so you have to pay attention. The crew savings is something I have definitely read before, but goodness knows where I would find it. That said given the topic I will note this from the WRTE
The RN battleships comprised 3 groups of ships. The 12” gunned ships were obsolete and worn out. The 13.5” gunned ships were war weary and obsolescent. The 15” gunned ships (except for Hood) were in need of refits.

The RN could afford to get rid of the 12” gunned and 13.5” gunned ships, because they were obsolete or obsolescent, tired, and in need of reconstruction rather than refits. The battlecruiser fleet, with the exception of the Hood, needed refitting and up-armouring (the 13.5” gunned ships) or total replacement (the 12” gunned ships). Even the 13.5” gunned ships would only have another 10 to 15 year working life.
 
Would they really scrap anything not completely worn out?

The WNT had the effect of making Super Dreadnoughts 13.5"/14" viable longer. This isn't the case. In particular, as pointed out the 13.5" ships need to be refitted. Their engines are direct drive, boilers are coal fired, they are not bulged, are lighter gunned than peers (10-13.5" vs 12-14") and optimised for the North Sea. It makes perfect sense to replace these with N3 and perhaps a follow on class depending if the US continues on slow BB or moves to a fast Battleship. After the G3 and N3 we are talking mid-late 1920's when even the Iron Dukes should be up for disposal, especially if expensive refits are skipped.

By this stage the RN are really stuck for potential foes. Treasury wont accept the US as a potential adversary and Japan is in alliance leaving French or Italian navies as the bogey-man. Swapping 2 25,000 ton old ships for a new built 50,000 ton one is a really good deal IF the RN can make a convincing enough pitch.
 
Remind me never to open the WTRE again. It is a TVTropes level rabbit hole.

Anyway, one of their proposals was to sell the Cats to the Dutch...
 

Driftless

Donor
By this stage the RN are really stuck for potential foes. Treasury wont accept the US as a potential adversary and Japan is in alliance leaving French or Italian navies as the bogey-man. Swapping 2 25,000 ton old ships for a new built 50,000 ton one is a really good deal IF the RN can make a convincing enough pitch.

Would any government pre-Cold War have considered the Soviets as a potential naval "sleeping giant"
 
Top