No More Half Measures--a Vitnam War comcept

Wasn't there a South Korean battalion in SVN? I seem to recall that their reputation was even more ferocious than the Aussies'.....:eek:

Mike Garrity

Oh, yes. Of course - as I'm sure you know, your knowledge of military history's way more expansive than mine - a lot of the Aussies were veterans of the Malayan conflict, so they had far more experience in jungle fighting and tackling small guerrilla units than the US or ROK contingents.

Actually, that reminds me... I remember when I was younger, I used to read these little British comic books - 'Commando', they were pocket-sized comics, usually about British and Commonwealth forces in WWII. But I remember one that was about an Australian SAS unit that started out in Malaya, then gets transferred to Vietnam. It was unusual - usually, Commando books were very black-and-white, heroic Allies against evil Nazis who say 'Achtung!' a lot :D But this one, while it portrayed the war against Communism as necessary, it also was utterly scathing in its portrayal of American troops (unhealthily obsessed with calling in airstrikes, heedless of civilian casualties or friendly fire), and the ARVN (corrupt, their commander sells out the heroes to the VietCong for a nice cash payment IIRC). It kind of straddled an odd line between being pro-war but more grey about it...

EDIT: I hasten to add, that was how the book portrayed US forces, not my opinion at all :)
 
South Korea was in the same boat during their war.
Low morale, a corrupt, unpopular dictatorship

they managed to fix it later, apparently. In any event, Korea was a different kind of war... the geographic isolation, the clearly drawn enemies (no significant VC counterpart), actual battle lines instead of endless insurgency conflict... not to mention, it was a UN thing, not America and a few allies acting on their own...
 
Korea---Vietnam

they managed to fix it later, apparently. In any event, Korea was a different kind of war... the geographic isolation, the clearly drawn enemies (no significant VC counterpart), actual battle lines instead of endless insurgency conflict... not to mention, it was a UN thing, not America and a few allies acting on their own...

Well, what I posted earlier, was to point out that a key difference between the two was that the enemy, not us, did the outflanking on the battlefield. And it was our side--ARVN, us and our allies--who were constantly outflanked up in the northern and north central provinces and that wasn't something that could be fixed readily. The only solution that would have provided any other alternative, would have been to work with Non-Aligned Movement states instead of so many western-allied ones, and to TRY--and this is a big issue--to get a solid line established much further south, above Saigon, running from Qui Nhon to Ha Tien. This, at least, is a line that cannot be outflanked from the north or really from the east.
This gives some breathing time but make no mistake, to so abandon the northern provinces would be unconscionable without some effort at an evacuation. I would think that, had it been started early enough in the war effort, a sizable evacuation could be achieved, especially if we don't force the North into a more pro-Soviet position than they were really wanting (which is what we did, ironically, with hawkish behavior otl).
It is that withdrawal of civilians from Buddhist-dominated northern areas that is the stickiest thing of all, and the one thing that we can't seem to get away from. Again, to work, it has to be done in driblets, not as a big, announced evacuation. Otherwise both panic and the potential for VC and NVA ground attacks would be too perilous.
The only offensive weapon we had was the naval mine. It was the only one that didn't give the North a propaganda tool against us--i.e., casualties and pows.
And even that weapon would need to be used with clear objectives--and limited ones at that--in mind. The goal is to show the North that we are NOT trying to replace France and are willing to work with the Non-Aligned Movement, including at the military level.
If we used mines too much, we push NV too much toward China, and give China an excuse to bully its way in further than even the North would want, on the ground.
Bombers and our troops on the ground tended to work against us on several levels, about as much as it helped us.
But above all, it was our vagueness as to our goals, especially long term goals, that was on the nerves of ALL the Vietnamese--and, really, all the Indochinese. What WERE we up to? was their question.
So, yes Ho was a Socialist and had been for a long time, going back to when Stalin first came into eminence in the Soviet system but he was also interested in being in the Non-Aligned status as Tito had been.
I suppose that, barring some change in the leadership and Cold War paranoids, it would have been difficult for JFK (for one) to feel brave enough to defy the right wingers and seek a neutralist Vietnam. It would have taken some convincing using Tito as an example to do so, and meantime we've got fighting going on on the ground and a massive number of people to evacuate from the northern provinces if we have done a good enough job of convincing the North they've got to come down and deter our takeover.
It would be a whole deal with that moving of the population south, and, as noted, would have been best done in driblets, not a massive evacuation. Then, once in that more secure position, with our forces replaced by Indian and other Non-Aligned, and without the embarassments and stresses of POWs, massive troops on the ground, assassinations, and atrocities, there could perhaps have been a much less violent outcome and a Vietnam more interested in a balanced foreign aid package from USSR, China AND the US and Europe and the Aussies.
There would be a lot of things that would have to go right, for that to happen, and one of them would be to minimize the violence we inflicted.
 
In regards to the evacuation from the northern provinces

I've wondered about a couple of things. Suppose if there were a Geneva conference like the one involving Laos, for Indochina, once again. This time, we get an agreement from both Vietnams, as part of the goal of reunification, for some temporary border changes and so forth.
Suppose that, say, we propose that Laos being given access to and control of the port of Da Nang for some period of time. In the process, the northern provinces of Quang Tri and Thua Thien become a separate nation, a neutralist nation called, say, Hue Buddhist Democratic Republic. Hue would then be renamed "Ho Chi Minh City". As the original main captial of Annam, it would also host ongoing peace negotiations between the Provisional Revolutionary Government and any Buddhist, Council that could be reasonably held to represent Buddhist neutralist sentiment.
With Laos now holding a corridor to Da Nang a few miles south of the Quang Nam province line, it would be quite a bit simpler to complete a rational, gradual evacuation of civilians who are interested in being elsewhere. Such civilians could then move east into Laos, and also by the port of Da Nang
south to the line that is being held to be the military boundary between the Republic of South Vietnam (for now) and the Annamese area. Any other movement such as evacuations of Vietnamese Catholics could be accomodated by France who otl offered to evacuate them via ocean liners to France from Danang and the northern ports and elsewhere.

Without a massive US troop presence in the South, the North might have been less interested in preventing a southward or eastward migration.

Meantime, with ARVN withdrawn to the Qui Nhon to Ha Tien line, the North is forced to confront the possibility of a frontal attack as its only military option in the south. If ARVN has been supplied and trained to some extent by the US and some Allies such as South Korea, the Philippines and Thailand, it could be intimidating enough for awhile to prompt the North to look at other options besides frontal assault.

With a slow and gradual withdrawal of anxious civilians from the northern Provinces, and with a the new Hue Buddhist Democratic Republic in the two northern provinces above Da Nang, and with Laos temporarily in charge of Da Nang, the peace negotiations in Hue/Ho Chi Minh City could begin in earnest, with the United States and its allies offering two initial things:
1. to allow themselves to be replaced by Non-Aligned Nations forces from India and other Non-Aligned nations on a graduated basis as peaceful reunification is negotiated at Hue/Ho Chi Minh City
2. to, on the hawkish side, inform the North that it would reserve the right to mine Haiphong and other Northern ports, if necessary, in event the North begins frontal assaults on the Southern line.

In the meantime, negotiations proposals could be offered regarding the remaining area in the northern part of the South from Danang down to Qui Nhon. Since ARVN will be withdrawing south of that more for military than diplomatic reasons, not much can be done if the North seems reluctant to be patient with civilian resettlement, except possibly bringing the naval mines into the picture, accompanied by economic embargoes and pressure on the Soviets to let up on efforts to have more direct control over either the North or the South, in favor of having greater access to Vietnamese port facilities in both North and South without having to resort to further violence, in return for acceptance of Vietnam as one nation in a Non-Aligned status.

It could be left among the Vietnamese and Laotians to discuss the future status of the port of Da Nang and whether the Hue Buddhist Democratic Republic would continue to exist and whether Hanoi, Saigon or Hue, as Ho Chi Minh city, would become the nation's capital.

With a lower US ground troop profile all along, and with no US aerial bombing and only a naval presence off the coasts as needed to assert the possibility of naval mines (a direct signal to the Soviets as part of the negotiations with them), there should be considerably less chaos and distrust in the air.

This is fraught with potential snags and so there are several things that must go smoothly. This is all taking place during the Cold War years. Our Administration must withstand the pressures stateside by the Right to get tougher with the Communists; simultaneously, it must continue all international efforts to pull Ho to be more interested in Non-Aligned status than in the role of Soviet puppet to secure protection from China and the US and the West.

There are several gray areas with all this. What happens with Cambodia, Thailand, and the Non-Aligned Movement nations?

This scenario does make Vietnam more resemble Korea in this sense: the threat of US naval mines is mostly directed at the Soviets, just as the UN presence was mostly directed at the Communist Chinese in Korea. It is more clear that it is a clash between two large nations, rather than the US simply trying to shove a small nation around. This gives America a better persona both internationally and at home. We are confronting the Soviets and asking them to think about the advantages of having access to Southern ports without expensive military operations and violence in return for a few political concessions when dealing with the new reunited Vietnam.
 
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JFK, in some of his final National Security Directives

regarding Vietnam, ordered that the South Vietnamese navy be trained in commando tactics for the purpose of attacking Northern port and other facilities from the sea.
This was an approach not used very much, instead being replaced by direct US Naval presence in the Tonkin Gulf.
If, instead of our using our own Navy, we had continued to rely more on the SVN naval forces as JFK was directing, would we have had the escalation that led to the Tonkin Gulf Resolution of 1964, that, in turn, led to the massive troop and air escalation?

And, if we could step back and look, we'd see the constant issue of the flanking and outflanking maneuver that the Ho Chi Minh trail through Laos and the attacks and infiltration from Cambodia to the east constituted .We could also then see that a military line running from Ha Tien in the far South, on the Cambodian border and near the coast, also could be prepared to run straight, in an unflank-able manner, up to Qui Nhon on the South Central South Vietnam coast. That would be, militarily speaking, a solid line that could not be infiltrated and outflanked by forces operating via infiltration through Laos and Cambodia.

Again, you are forcing the enemy out of a superior position for that southern portion of South Vietnam below that line from Ha Tien to Qui Nhon, and into a position of having to attack that area frontally, not via infiltration and outflanking.

Your ARVN personnel would not become demoralized in holding such a line, and the enemy, on the other hand, would feel increasing frustration at not being able to outflank it. Meanwhile, the infiltration of the northern Provinces by the outflanking maneuver that is forcing us to undertake the partial evacuation of interested civilians from the northern provinces in Annam to below the Ha Tien-to-Qui Nhon line, could be answered to some extent by commando attacks by the South Vietnam navy against Northern port facilities.

The US Naval presence would then be limited to vessels laying naval mines if an when a certain point in the negotiations in Hue had been reached. As the relatively smaller US forces (compared to OTL) were gradually replaced by Non-Aligned forces such as Indian, Pakistani or other nations' forces in holding the Ha Tien-to-Qui Nhon line, the argument that US hegemony was at work would be less of a devilment for the North in its efforts to avert both Chinese territorial demands and military aggression borne of having supplied a great deal of military equipment, and Soviet political and economic demands borne also of heavy military assistance. This would allow the North a face-saving way to tolerate a US presence in the South that was clearly gradually being replaced by Non-Aligned nation forces.

I've often noted that Hue seemed to be the "natural" capital of Vietnam, in some ways, though perhaps not all. There were, after all, three areas of Vietnam, Tonkin, Annam and Cochin. Hanoi governed Tonkin, Saigon, Cochin, while Hue governed Annam.

With Laos lightly populated and militarily weak, it was going to be vulnerable as a base for NVA infiltration and outflanking maneuvers, making the northern South Vietnam provinces relatively difficult and costly to hold, with many withdrawals and counterattacks with the consequent drain on ARVN and Allied morale.

With a solid military line from Ha Tien to Qui Nhon as the new military objective for Allied forces in the South, the morale could be maintained better and casualties and costs contained much more realistically.

Yet, we must, as in OTL, face the daunting prospect of an evacuation of at least part of the population of the vulnerable Annam population in the northern provinces to below the Ha Tien-to-Qui Nhon line. This is the most difficult aspect of this. It is a major imposition on the population of Annam that the Tonkinese are engaged in such aggression through and against their area. If they are made to realize that they are, long term, going to be facing a line they cannot outflank, in the South from Ha Tien to Qui Nhon, they would be less incentivized to continue infiltration and to sincerely negotiate with a more limited US presence.

Again, recall that North Vietnam was engaged in balancing act, OTL, between Russia, China and the West, essentially trying to play one against the other to try to restrain the risk of Chinese, especially, hegemony.

By giving them less to be apprehensive about pertaining to US ambitions in the area, while simultaneously presenting a solid line area in southern South Vietnam that could not be readily seized, we open the door, for the first time, to genuine opportunities for a neutral Vietnam.

The limited US presence in the extreme South would provide something of a check to the threat of a growing Soviet political and economic control in the Northern and Central areas of Vietnam, Tonkin and the northern provinces of Annam.

At the same time, that limited US presence also allows the North an alternative to only Chinese aid as an alternative to Soviet aide, since the US, in de-escalating and finally ending its ground presence in most of the South, is in a position to work with non-Aligned nations in giving Vietnam new economic and trade options.

Thus, the Soviets are incentivized to be interested in use of port facilities in both the North and the South, as well as a Non-Aligned port at DaNang, without having to engage in military activity to achieve them. At the same time, the NVA are dis encitivized to continue attacks against the extreme South, given that such attacks now take on the quality of costly frontal assaults. With the opposing troops in that extreme South also taking more and more the character of Non-Aligned nation forces rather than US forces, both the political and the military--as well as the economic--incentives are in place for a realistic negotiation for a neutralist Vietnam with a balanced economic and trade situation.

There are pitfalls, as noted, including the need to evacuate some of the population of the northern provinces of Annam for a period of time until the true difference (from OTL) in the situation begins to sink in on the NVA general staff and the economic and trade planners in Hanoi, Peking and Moscow, as well as important Non-Aligned nation partners such as India, Pakistan and Indonesia. Vietnam's sister Indochinese states, Cambodia and Laos, are also incentivized to envision a new more prosperous Indochina as well. Another pitfall is the Right in American politics during the time-frame, as they would be calling for more aggressive military action and an escalation instead of a de-escalation, of the US presence.

In this scenario, it is also hard to get a clear idea of what would have constituted a "maximum" US presence, and how long the US presence would remain as it is phased out by Non-Aligned forces.

One key difference that can be seen, is that the US forces are being replaced, not just by ARVN forces but by Non-Aligned nation forces. Vietnamization is still going on, but in a different context and with more of an emphasis of their being replaced, also, by Non-Aligned forces.

I am attempting to evaluate how long this process would take, but of course it is an ongoing process anyway. By going back to before the big US buildup and so forth, we have the luxury here of being able to make all the right moves, would be the idea!
 
If the OTL end of the Soviet era as 1980-5

is the beginning of the end point, and allow 6 months to a year for the difference in approach to sink in, following some rise in prominence in the South of such parties as Duong van Minh, in the time frame of around 1961-2 or 3 as the beginning point of our change in direction, and if we assume the JFK administration remains in office (perhaps) if for no other reason, the reason of simplicity, we reach a point where there would be an end to what could be called major military activity by the US.
Since we are not committed in this TL to maintaining a divided Vietnam but rather creating a reunited Vietnam as a Non-Aligned state, we can work with all parties who are interested in the goals of the Non-Aligned Movement during that time-frame.

We are maintaining the ARVN land, air and naval forces as part of a larger picture for all of Indochina, a picture that doesn't, in this TL, plan or hope for a permanent maintenance of a divided Vietnam but does recognize the need for it in the short run for logistical and economic purposes.

WE have the advantage of knowing the the USSR is about to change, so this has to color our perceptions. If we begin our process about 1961 and allow ten years for some military and economic and diplomatic maneuvers, we know that 1971 could be a big year for Vietnam and the Non-Aligned Movement. And, we would know that ten years later, as the Soviet Communist model changes and collapses, the ability to reunite Vietnam could finally be permanent, with less violence and hopefully less displacement for the people of South (especially) Vietnam (though also with hopefully considerably less horrific casualties and fighting in all of Indochina..
 
North Vietnam

What if the U.S. invaded North Vietnam?Would that have been successful or would it have made things worse?Because that is the only way I see that could have stopped the Viet Cong's supplies.
 
What if the U.S. invaded North Vietnam?Would that have been successful or would it have made things worse?Because that is the only way I see that could have stopped the Viet Cong's supplies.

It would lead to a quick escalation of hostilities from both China and the USSR that would ultimately force the US to withdraw.

But would it be easy in pure military terms? I'd imagine so, preemptive defence is best defence if we leave diplomacy aside. ;)
 
It would lead to a quick escalation of hostilities from both China and the USSR that would ultimately force the US to withdraw.

But would it be easy in pure military terms? I'd imagine so, preemptive defence is best defence if we leave diplomacy aside. ;)

True enough.
 

jahenders

Banned
I think with serious focus it could certainly be done, though it wouldn't be easy. Nixon got far closer to a "no half measures" concept in 1972, but he could potentially have done that, and more, in 1969.

Simply put, you could:
- Do virtually unrestricted bombing -- any bridge, damn, factory, railroad, port, airfield, trucks, cars, etc. Other than PURELY civilian targets, nothing is off limits.
- Strong tactical bombing of any NV military formation.
- Mine all NV harbors and impose a blockade
- Declare all NV airspace hostile. Any plane there is a target (whether NV or Russian).

This could bring them to the table fast with some of specified conditions. Keep in up for a few weeks and they'll be willing to agree.

The problem, of course, is that it might all fall apart as soon as we leave. In some sense, that might be OK as we've achieved a (semi) honorable peace. If we want it to last, we've got to get the South to straighten up, but also probably need air patrols along the border. Any troop concentration crossing the border is annihilated from the air.
 
The problem here is that is still

The problem here is, in my opinion, that is still discussing the merits and demerits of the various possible military strategies ... to a political conflict that did not have a military solution but a political solution:

First: the US military and its political controls should be waived his cultural arrogance and prejudices; to his enemies and even to parts of its own population, in his approach and analysis of the topic ... something that even if they had seen at the time as a problem would not have been able to leave their 'cultural ballast'.

Second: The US. faced a geopolitical situation in the region and globally unfavorable, as has been pointed out by others before.

This was not a situation or conflict begun to actively engage the United States but had only come In its new phase: After nine years of war, in 1954 the troops of General Giap defeated the French at Dien Bien Phu.
*In a battle between regular armies, the French military is trusted and underestimated their opponents to place undue reliance on air power and believe they were in a good position and well entrenched near the village of Dien Bien Phu, in a valley surrounded mountains.
*

-In an unprecedented logistical deployment Giap's forces moved the artillery piece by piece through the jungle, surprising the French who have not seen the motion and could not foresee the bombing that quickly drove them back in their positions.
The French once despite their desperate attempts lost access to the places where they were located its runways, were cut off from their line of security logistics and subjected to site.

The Dien Bien Phu campaign was the first major victory of a colonial village with a primitive agricultural economy, against a European army experienced sustained by a modern defense industry.

*It was a foretaste of what the United States should face years later.
*
Third: The War and its outcome for either contender s not based exclusively on the rights and wrongs of an strategy applied on one side, but is the result of the conjunction of both sides and in this case the political will to address casualties and sufferings judged necessary towards the achievement of its objectives ... because a lot has been disseminated by the fact that some 500 thousand American soldiers went to war, 58,000 died and around 300 000 psychologically they were affected in what is known as "post-Vietnam syndrome" (flashbacks, nightmares and severe anxiety). However little we often speak of the two million Vietnamese deaths (approximately the total number is incalculable).:(

The vast majority were not killed by the fighting, if not victims of the tons and tons of napalm and Agent Orange launched by US bombers razed entire villages and towns both in the south and in the north.

Finally and perhaps most importantly US forces had to face without being able to find a strategic solution to the deliberate application, the doctrinal concept adapted, planned and executed the People's war or Prolonged Popular War by the political leader and military strategist Vietnamese Vo Nguyen Giap was to study the works Maoists and their manner of implementation and adapt to the Vietnamese reality.

Besides of course, He was a student of Sun Tzu's work, long before it became known and the Westerners understand the relevance of their study in a systematic way by theirs military and political.
 
differences between N. Vietham and N. Korea:

Originally Posted by Master Xion
What if the U.S. invaded North Vietnam?Would that have been successful or would it have made things worse?Because that is the only way I see that could have stopped the Viet Cong's supplies.
It would lead to a quick escalation of hostilities from both China and the USSR that would ultimately force the US to withdraw.

But would it be easy in pure military terms? I'd imagine so, preemptive defence is best defence if we leave diplomacy aside."

The goal in Vietnam, unlike Korea, was to keep China out of a direct intervention and we had one tantalizing factor that made that possible: unlike North Korea, which welcomed direct Chinese military intervention, North Vietnam was TRYING TO AVOID THAT.

This is why the diplomatic hand had a more military side to than it did in Korea. In the latter, diplomacy "followed" military action; in Vietnam, if preceded it. The truth is, North Vietnam, in effect, had China breathing down its neck, and after 1964, with China's Bomb, that was a very intimidating pressure for Vietnamese nationalists including Ho.

By playing on the North's inability to get supplies from USSR through its port via naval mines--which didn't require putting many US personnel in harm 's way and minimized risk of POWs as negotiating pawns accumulating over time, as air strikes did otl--we not only weaken its ability to resupply NVA and VC forces, but we force the North to once again realize that the Chinese were going to insist on direct overland assistance and the attached territorial demands against the North.

Thus, even though this was never brought out much in the monolithic Communist bloc thinking that lumped all "commies" together, these important gaps can be used to good effect to help create an environment where the US is not taking a macho pose vis a vis North Vietnam, but is able to achieve some semblence of a Non-Aligned nation in Vietnam.

The massive troop presence required to fight the constant back and forth battle in the northern provinces wouldn't be required here, and so the holding of the southern tier line would involve fewer troops who would have a relatively successful tactic, more conventional in nature, that would be more discouraging of continued frontal attacks by NVA.

We need to accept that the military position in the northern Provinces was simply untenable. Throwing military and civilian lives, tons of money, explosives and poisonous chemicals could only preserve an endless and never winnable, only inconclusive, series of back and forth battles.
 
the book to read is this one...

http://www.amazon.com/On-Strategy-The-Vietnam-Context/dp/1410204197

it was what the US Army thought of the War after the war
Just to contribute some info for the discussion, as to the potential of other nations that were involved in the conflict, this site lists all the forces involved on the South's side (however, there were a few more token size forces from a handful of other nations, such as Spain and United Kingdom):
http://www.americanwarlibrary.com/vietnam/vwatl.htm

This may also be useful to anyone wanting to know more about the troop levels of various nations. One other insight, perhaps, on other possible perspectives on the use of Non-Aligned Movement nations' forces, is found in a comment Lyndon Johnson made in the immediate aftermath of the overthrow of the Sukarno communist regime in Indonesia, in which LBJ said that he thought it feasible that Indonesia would now be so gung ho about fighting communism that they might contribute sizable forces to a future force in South Vietnam.
 
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