No More Half Measures--a Vitnam War comcept

You can kill ten of my men for every one I kill of yours, but even at those odds, you will lose and I will win. --Ho Chi Minh to the French, late 1940s

This. Countries that try to invade Vietnam tend not to enjoy the experience. Not even the Mongols managed it.

The only way you can have a 'good ending' for South Vietnam is not have people like Ngo Dinh Diem and the generals running things. Because even if - by some fluke - the war had been won by the US-backed South, what would Vietnam look like today? Probably be still divided, the South would be another corrupt Third World dictatorship whose elite wear swanky uniforms and build gigantic palaces while the people live in mud huts. Communist Vietnam was pretty brutal (and even today, I doubt criticising the Communist Party is a smart idea), but at least Doi Moi has allowed the country to advance and the people to have a better quality of life. I doubt that that would have happened under a Diem-style regime.
 
Yes, closing the trails completely from the air is impossible.

However, the trails only worked because there were goods in NV to be transported via those trails. It made far more sense, and would be far safer, and more effective, to try to destroy the supplies BEFORE they left a factory in NV or arrived in NV. As others have noted, we COULD have blockaded NV, mined or destroyed its ports, etc. and we COULD have much more severely destroyed their rail and road infrastructure.

If those things were done, there would be little, if anything available for the VC to send along those trails.

So, the VC in the field would be far less well equipped and could be defeated far more easily. Further, the NVA would never be able to mount an actual ground campaign, which is what ultimately ended the war.

China and Vietnam share an 800 mile Land Border so bombing and blockading the harbours will slow down the supplied from the Soviet Union, which means either the supplies have to come through China which could be dicey given Sino-Soviet relations, or, Vietnam becomes more dependent on Chinese support. This opens up a potential issue of the the US regular forces, or CIA paramilitary forces going too far and attacking a shipment from China, while it's still in China...
I'll leave you to extrapolate the consequences. ;)

As for transport through Vietnam to the warzone, a lack of rail would slow things down in the short term, same with taking out bridges. But long term, they just find another way to shift supplies and before long you're back to normal. This is why the trails were so effective.
The NVA Regulars would probably suffer for a short while, the VC on the other hand, far less so. I think the continued US presence would delay the ground offensive, an increased air campaign would delay it further, but I don't think it will cancel it, and ultimately, I believe the end result will be the same.

There are a couple of side issues that could turn things bad for the Americans, or at least turn them worse than OTL.
The more aircraft that are in the air over North Vietnam, the more are going to be lost.
The causes will be the same - Enemy fighters, AAA, Accidents, mechanical failure, the ratios may not be the same and may not match up to the increase in aircraft. However each of these need to be replaced. US losses OTL were roughly 0.4 Aircraft per thousand sorties, a huge reduction compared to WWII where it was over 9 per thousand sorties. The chances of getting back to WWII levels are ASB, however Korea was around 2 per 1000, and that is achievable, means rather than around 6,000 combat losses of fixed wing aircraft, you're looking at 30,000 with the resultant losses of crew at the same ratio.
All of which need to be replaced.

There's also the expense. Both sides will see an exponential increase in expenditure. The US are likely to have to pay for far more facilities, airfields, storage bases, support facilities, accommodation etc.
The more facilities you have, the more targets you present to the enemy. The more opportunities you supply as well. You provide opportunities for infiltration, theft and sabotage. You could mitigate this to some extent by not employing any Vietnamese civilians, but then you alienate the very people you're trying to liberate and become no better than the French, and drive more recruits into the arms of the VC. Just as bad, possibly worse is if you employ Vietnamese civilians but keep them sequestered from their families or keep them on base, effectively like prisoners, again you make them ripe for recruitment. Between that and the, as described above, "Toxic" South Vietnamese governments, and things really don't bode well for the US efforts.

In a war situation you tend to spend first and account later, but this could have some serious effects on the US Economy, and that's before you take into account the losses to the economy for supplying all that extra man power. Using the very very rough figures above, you're looking to replace 30,000 very expensive to train aircrew in various trades. You then have to replace the lost air frames, repair the damaged ones, rehabilitate the physically and mentally injured crews, replace the killed, incapacitated and captured crews, the financial bill is rising exponentially. The US will worry about how much this costs, the effects on their economy, the effects on their respectability.
The various flavours of Communists running North Vietnam won't be interested in the cost, the dialectic states that the proletariat will bear any burden to free themselves and cause the inevitable workers revolution etc etc.


The North Vietnamese on the other hand, to deal with the increased air presence just have to buy and site more AAA Guns and SAMs. And more POW space. All of these cost much less.

This ignores the domestic production. Depending on what and how they are producing, a lot can be done in small workshops, mostly modifications, same with repairs and upgrades.
The mass manufacture is likely to take place in China or the Soviet Union. Materially, I really don't think the North Vietnamese will lose out a great deal, probably the closest example that springs to mind is Germany from 1943 - despite the RAF and USAAF bombing Germany around the clock, industrial output rose year on year from what I remember.


I apologise for the mass of unstructured rambling, it won't be easy to follow. Short version: it's messier, takes longer, more people on both sides die, end result at best for the Americans is stalemate on the start line ala Korea, worst case, defeat.
 
Winning the war with only military improvements is certainly difficult.


The idea that vast increases in anything and everything would have no real impact seems Deterministic.


An earlier and/or longer lasting mining of the Harbor should have a positive effect.

Various steps could be taken to discourage China from taking up the slack on it's border, from political bribes to threats to outright attack.
 
Is the US wiling to make an all-out invasion from South Vietnam to Cambodia, Laos, and North Vietnam at the same time? With massive use of chemical weapons to drive out anyone possibly sympathetic to the Vietcong? Along with an amphibious attack into Haiphong?
Then yes, the US can win. It would also become a pariah state within the Western world for its brutality, with the riots becoming such a commonality that many never reach the media. There would be mass emigrations to Canada, Britain, Australia, and elsewhere. This is a war the US cannot win, not this way.

But here's a something that I thought was an interesting thought concept: what if the US paid a US-aligned dictatorship, i.e. Taiwan, the Philippines or South Korea, to fight the war for them? Troops would be supplied with good US-grade weapons, and minimal losses would be made on the American side. This doesn't seem any better than plans to secretly bomb parts of Laos and Cambodia.
 
But here's a something that I thought was an interesting thought concept: what if the US paid a US-aligned dictatorship, i.e. Taiwan, the Philippines or South Korea, to fight the war for them? Troops would be supplied with good US-grade weapons, and minimal losses would be made on the American side. This doesn't seem any better than plans to secretly bomb parts of Laos and Cambodia.

From what I've about Korean intervention, their conduct wasn't any better than U.S troops, so it's same bastards different faces. Even then winning in Vietnam is a tall order, not having Westmoreland in charge, maybe having Kennedy alive so Johnson doesn't get his hands in everything. The problem with no Diem, is that Diem actually getting as far as he did would have been considered ASB, because no one though he could have lasted considered how fragmented South Vietnam was.

South Vietnam was divided between parts of the army, Emperor Bao Dai's supporters the Binh Xuyen crime syndicate and the Hoa Hao religious sect. We would be seeing a South Vietnam that is more divided and potentially unstable.
 

takerma

Banned
So, how precisely do you do all these things without sinking Soviet-flagged vessels and without bombing the railheads on the Chinese side of the border ? Im going to take it as a given the US is going to need to invade Laos and Cambodia and occupy them with ground troops.

You pound the ports into dust. Then you mine the approaches, while letting USSR know. They can get light stuff in.. anything heavy not so much.

If you destroy rail network Chinese supply is a small issue. Pound stuff from air suppress the AA then you have Fighter bombers in the air over the north 24/7 blowing up any train that moves.

US air based firepower if utilized indiscriminately would be a terrifying thing. If they really want they can turn Hanoi into Dresden or Tokyo, except easier and faster... Can north take it? maybe but I do not think so. All of this will require strict censorship and WW2 style press handling

Then question will Chinese intervene like in Korea? That is a big one..
 
From what I've about Korean intervention, their conduct wasn't any better than U.S troops, so it's same bastards different faces. Even then winning in Vietnam is a tall order, not having Westmoreland in charge, maybe having Kennedy alive so Johnson doesn't get his hands in everything. The problem with no Diem, is that Diem actually getting as far as he did would have been considered ASB, because no one though he could have lasted considered how fragmented South Vietnam was.

South Vietnam was divided between parts of the army, Emperor Bao Dai's supporters the Binh Xuyen crime syndicate and the Hoa Hao religious sect. We would be seeing a South Vietnam that is more divided and potentially unstable.

As you say, the biggest obstacle to winning the war in Vietnam is the RVN. They need to be stable first and really, this needs an earlier POD.
 
You pound the ports into dust. Then you mine the approaches, while letting USSR know. They can get light stuff in.. anything heavy not so much.



If you destroy rail network Chinese supply is a small issue.

Maybe not.

Pound stuff from air suppress the AA then you have Fighter bombers in the air over the north 24/7 blowing up any train that moves.

US air based firepower if utilized indiscriminately would be a terrifying thing. If they really want they can turn Hanoi into Dresden or Tokyo, except easier and faster... Can north take it?

I think you're mistaking 21st century air superiority with the conditions prevalent in 1965. Vietnam with Russian and Chinese assistance, showed a remarkable ability to shoot down American aircraft.


maybe but I do not think so. All of this will require strict censorship and WW2 style press handling

Good luck with that.

Then question will Chinese intervene like in Korea? That is a big one..
 
No half measures? You mean a Linebacker II on steroids with something along the lines of 3000 B-52 sorties instead of 741 B-52 sorties in say 1962?

I suspect that would have worked to bring the North to the table and no I don't think it would have brought China into the war, but it also wouldn't have kept the peace for more then 5-10 years before the North tries again.

The only way to keep the peace is a stable government in the South backed up by a better preforming South Vietnamese Army.
 
This truly is the classic dilemma, isn't it:

"The only way to keep the peace is a stable government in the South backed up by a better preforming South Vietnamese Army."

I've tried to see, over these past few months, if the concept of a much smaller area to defend and a more solid defensive line in the South, might have produced a more positive and less violent outcome for Vietnam. If the goal was a reunified Vietnam as a member of the Non-Aligned Movement, and a neutral Buddhist state of Annam in the center and a smaller South Vietnam with a solid line from Qui Nhon to Ha Tien, (possibly even from Nha Trang and
Cam Ranh, even, to Ha Tien) as the northern boundary of the smaller Southern state, possibly would provide a more realistic area for ARVN to hold, especially with only a small group of US advisors, not combat troops, and no US bombing of the North (although possibly training of ARVN pilots), and no US Naval presence although the mining of Haiphong harbor and embargoes against the North could be an option at a critical juncture in the negotiation to create a reunified and Non-Aligned Vietnam.

The neutral Buddhist state would pose a real challenge in terms of a massive evacuation that could best be undertaken with a diplomatic settlement creating the neutral Annam the Buddhists had long wanted, as they wished to take their chances on NVA actions.

Another problem is that the solidness of the new line, not vulnerable as it would be, to being outflanked by forces coming from Laos, Cambodia and Annam, could be a pressure to the Chinese to want to exert more direct pressure from the North to come into the situation directly. American mines could deter Soviet shipping at Haiphong, without risk of US naval casualties.
But this is an idea that must be hashed out. It appears to have some potential if it were undertaken early on, say, by 1962 or '63.
 
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Ultimately, sure you can win in Vietnam, theoretically.

Hell, worst come to worse, the United States had enough nuclear weapons to glass all of Indochina, even in 1965. If we're serious about 'no half measures' there you go.

But right now, I can feel an almost universal revulsion and disquiet for the idea. Setting aside the horrific qualities - and genocide is horrific and unforgiveable - it's also the gateway to World War III.

Start throwing around atom bombs and hydrogen bombs... who knows what's going to come through those opened doors. Odds are, nothing good. Could the United States get through nuking Vietnam without starting WWIII? Maybe. Could the world get through the next ten years with that door yawning open, the Communists gone 100% paranoid, tension ratcheted past the breaking point? Probably not. End of the world.

But there you go. No half measures? Throw the nukes. Don't throw the nukes? We're in half measures country.

There was good reason not to throw the nukes. There were good reasons to worry about a Soviet Union that had ground superiority in the European Theatre, or a nuclear armed, borderline insane China under the Maoists.

LBJ and McNama, Nixon and Kissinger, all take a lot of heat for Vietnam. But the truth is that they were playing the bigger game every step on the way. They were fighting and plotting their way through a global cold war, and that included making very damned sure it didn't go hot.

What's the point of winning Vietnam... but losing the planet.
 
This. Countries that try to invade Vietnam tend not to enjoy the experience. Not even the Mongols managed it.

The only way you can have a 'good ending' for South Vietnam is not have people like Ngo Dinh Diem and the generals running things. Because even if - by some fluke - the war had been won by the US-backed South, what would Vietnam look like today? Probably be still divided, the South would be another corrupt Third World dictatorship whose elite wear swanky uniforms and build gigantic palaces while the people live in mud huts. Communist Vietnam was pretty brutal (and even today, I doubt criticising the Communist Party is a smart idea), but at least Doi Moi has allowed the country to advance and the people to have a better quality of life. I doubt that that would have happened under a Diem-style regime.
China managed to rule the place for a thousand years.
 
China managed to rule the place for a thousand years.

A lot of people think it was nominal - and direct control was definitely intermittent - especially because it fits the historiographic theory of "these jungle Charlies defeat any foreign power".
 
A lot of people think it was nominal - and direct control was definitely intermittent - especially because it fits the historiographic theory of "these jungle Charlies defeat any foreign power".

Well perhaps not entirely accurate...but when said 'jungle Charlies' can boast of defeating the Mongols, the French and the Americans, one can see why that reputation arises.

Also, I was under the impression that Chinese rule over Vietnam was more of a suzerain-vassal relationship, with overtones of 'Don't make me come over there', rather than direct rule.

It's a very real possibility that I'm wrong, of course...

EDIT: On the subject of which... https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=r69pYC8Ft-k
 
No half measures? You mean a Linebacker II on steroids with something along the lines of 3000 B-52 sorties instead of 741 B-52 sorties in say 1962?

I suspect that would have worked to bring the North to the table and no I don't think it would have brought China into the war, but it also wouldn't have kept the peace for more then 5-10 years before the North tries again.

The only way to keep the peace is a stable government in the South backed up by a better preforming South Vietnamese Army.


You buy enough time, and you get beyond the China Soviet Split, could mean the end of the soviet supplies coming out of China.

And the harbors are all close by mines...

And by then the Soviet Union itself is start to get near it's expiration date.
 

John Farson

Banned
Frankly, one would have to go into Generalplan Ost territory to truly crush the North Vietnamese and VC and, well, genocide is not very cool.
 
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