No Japanese colonization: Does Korea remain a monarchy?
- Thread starter Laqueesha
- Start date
Son of Leman Russ
Banned
Let's say the Japanese actually have a stake over Korean Monarch's survival rather than outright annexing them, and the ironic possible POD is the growth of Chinese Republican sentiments in late 19th century also grows in Korea and Japan
Yes, Japan did have some early hostilities with Korea, but then, let's say Korea clearly siding with Japan in Russo-Japan war.
Soon, after Sun Yat Sen's revolution, they will definitely grew closer and LESS HOSTILE because the threat of Republicanism is greater than their historical hostilities, especially since both Dynasty have been intermarriaged in the past, they ARE viewed as "foreign dynasty" in BOTH their empire (although not as bad as the Qing). If they are rational, they will work together and closer to save their ass... and yes, that means NO japanese Colonization of Korea.
...
Yes, I can see both end up as Monarchy up until...
well, WW2, seriously, but with Korea allied with Japan, and both agreed to carve China up. And with TWO Asian Empires carving China, it will either make the western powers tell the Chinese to suck it up and say "We don't care." or actually doubles their efforts to help KMT Republic.
And whatever they do, even if the first are done, the Americans, British, and French will be hostile when Japan (and Korea as co Belligerent this time) invade Dutch East Indies and Malaya for oil. But well, without Japanese troops being tied down in Korea, we can see a totally larger area conquered by the combined might of the two empires, but comparatively smaller area conquered by each. Japan got all the Islands and some coastal regions, Korea will got mainland and maybe some oil producing islands for the deal.
And when the Japanese do the Pearl Harbour...
But uh, seriously? Korea joining Axis too? So the Axis will be technically half Asian now? What will Hitler think of that?
Yeah, USA is definitely getting whopped in the ass this time if they really try to intervene in the Pacific. No Korean guerillas to help them this time, KMT and PLA will be mostly dead already, and with TWO Empire going in 'friendly competition' to get the most ex-european colonies, they will be LESS HARSH, and perhaps really maintaining their facade of liberators against the western powers, so... much less Filipino fighting at US' side for the start.
East and South East Asia are gonna end up as Japan - Korea playground this time...
Until the nuclear bomb finished..
after that, depends on what happened in Europe, USA is gonna bomb them to the stone age with nukes...
and with less direct threat from communism (since there is no Korean communists to manipulate, only Chinese communists), they're going to remove those Emperors and replace them with Republics...
so yeah, in the end, Both Japan and Korea will be Republics without Japanese colonization of Korea.
Yes, Japan did have some early hostilities with Korea, but then, let's say Korea clearly siding with Japan in Russo-Japan war.
Soon, after Sun Yat Sen's revolution, they will definitely grew closer and LESS HOSTILE because the threat of Republicanism is greater than their historical hostilities, especially since both Dynasty have been intermarriaged in the past, they ARE viewed as "foreign dynasty" in BOTH their empire (although not as bad as the Qing). If they are rational, they will work together and closer to save their ass... and yes, that means NO japanese Colonization of Korea.
...
Yes, I can see both end up as Monarchy up until...
well, WW2, seriously, but with Korea allied with Japan, and both agreed to carve China up. And with TWO Asian Empires carving China, it will either make the western powers tell the Chinese to suck it up and say "We don't care." or actually doubles their efforts to help KMT Republic.
And whatever they do, even if the first are done, the Americans, British, and French will be hostile when Japan (and Korea as co Belligerent this time) invade Dutch East Indies and Malaya for oil. But well, without Japanese troops being tied down in Korea, we can see a totally larger area conquered by the combined might of the two empires, but comparatively smaller area conquered by each. Japan got all the Islands and some coastal regions, Korea will got mainland and maybe some oil producing islands for the deal.
And when the Japanese do the Pearl Harbour...
But uh, seriously? Korea joining Axis too? So the Axis will be technically half Asian now? What will Hitler think of that?
Yeah, USA is definitely getting whopped in the ass this time if they really try to intervene in the Pacific. No Korean guerillas to help them this time, KMT and PLA will be mostly dead already, and with TWO Empire going in 'friendly competition' to get the most ex-european colonies, they will be LESS HARSH, and perhaps really maintaining their facade of liberators against the western powers, so... much less Filipino fighting at US' side for the start.
East and South East Asia are gonna end up as Japan - Korea playground this time...
Until the nuclear bomb finished..
after that, depends on what happened in Europe, USA is gonna bomb them to the stone age with nukes...
and with less direct threat from communism (since there is no Korean communists to manipulate, only Chinese communists), they're going to remove those Emperors and replace them with Republics...
so yeah, in the end, Both Japan and Korea will be Republics without Japanese colonization of Korea.
Let's say the Japanese actually have a stake over Korean Monarch's survival rather than outright annexing them, and the ironic possible POD is the growth of Chinese Republican sentiments in late 19th century also grows in Korea and Japan
Yes, Japan did have some early hostilities with Korea, but then, let's say Korea clearly siding with Japan in Russo-Japan war.
Soon, after Sun Yat Sen's revolution, they will definitely grew closer and LESS HOSTILE because the threat of Republicanism is greater than their historical hostilities, especially since both Dynasty have been intermarriaged in the past, they ARE viewed as "foreign dynasty" in BOTH their empire (although not as bad as the Qing). If they are rational, they will work together and closer to save their ass... and yes, that means NO japanese Colonization of Korea.
...
Yes, I can see both end up as Monarchy up until...
well, WW2, seriously, but with Korea allied with Japan, and both agreed to carve China up. And with TWO Asian Empires carving China, it will either make the western powers tell the Chinese to suck it up and say "We don't care." or actually doubles their efforts to help KMT Republic.
And whatever they do, even if the first are done, the Americans, British, and French will be hostile when Japan (and Korea as co Belligerent this time) invade Dutch East Indies and Malaya for oil. But well, without Japanese troops being tied down in Korea, we can see a totally larger area conquered by the combined might of the two empires, but comparatively smaller area conquered by each. Japan got all the Islands and some coastal regions, Korea will got mainland and maybe some oil producing islands for the deal.
And when the Japanese do the Pearl Harbour...
But uh, seriously? Korea joining Axis too? So the Axis will be technically half Asian now? What will Hitler think of that?
Yeah, USA is definitely getting whopped in the ass this time if they really try to intervene in the Pacific. No Korean guerillas to help them this time, KMT and PLA will be mostly dead already, and with TWO Empire going in 'friendly competition' to get the most ex-european colonies, they will be LESS HARSH, and perhaps really maintaining their facade of liberators against the western powers, so... much less Filipino fighting at US' side for the start.
East and South East Asia are gonna end up as Japan - Korea playground this time...
Until the nuclear bomb finished..
after that, depends on what happened in Europe, USA is gonna bomb them to the stone age with nukes...
and with less direct threat from communism (since there is no Korean communists to manipulate, only Chinese communists), they're going to remove those Emperors and replace them with Republics...
so yeah, in the end, Both Japan and Korea will be Republics without Japanese colonization of Korea.
That would make a great TL.
You mean the Japanese Emperors having Baekje royal blood?
How was the Rhee/Joseon Dynasty dynasty related to the Japanese royalty?
Son of Leman Russ
Banned
You mean the Japanese Emperors having Baekje royal blood?
How was the Rhee/Joseon Dynasty dynasty related to the Japanese royalty?
The Joseon Dynasty has took some daughter of Japanese Daimyos as wifes and concubines in the middle ages as well.
and about the plot of my TL I posted before, Will it end up better if in the end Japanese-Korean Empires alliance end up completely whooping USA's ass? Instead of they being whooped as USA does to Japan OTL? And by completely whooping I mean they both invade US mainland
, I can arrange for that... To digress...
I've heard a Korean version of this. Do the Japanese admit to it?
I've heard a Korean version of this. Do the Japanese admit to it?
Delta Force
Banned
The monarchy either had or was perceived to have some clout during the early years of the RoK, leading the government to try to encourage them to leave the country. If they really had that much influence (even if only perceived) after cooperating with the Japanese occupiers and even serving in their military, I think Korea would have had a good chance at remaining a monarchy (constitutional or otherwise) into the present.
Let's say the Japanese actually have a stake over Korean Monarch's survival rather than outright annexing them, and the ironic possible POD is the growth of Chinese Republican sentiments in late 19th century also grows in Korea and Japan
Yes, Japan did have some early hostilities with Korea, but then, let's say Korea clearly siding with Japan in Russo-Japan war.
Soon, after Sun Yat Sen's revolution, they will definitely grew closer and LESS HOSTILE because the threat of Republicanism is greater than their historical hostilities, especially since both Dynasty have been intermarriaged in the past, they ARE viewed as "foreign dynasty" in BOTH their empire (although not as bad as the Qing). If they are rational, they will work together and closer to save their ass... and yes, that means NO japanese Colonization of Korea.
...
Yes, I can see both end up as Monarchy up until...
well, WW2, seriously, but with Korea allied with Japan, and both agreed to carve China up. And with TWO Asian Empires carving China, it will either make the western powers tell the Chinese to suck it up and say "We don't care." or actually doubles their efforts to help KMT Republic.
And whatever they do, even if the first are done, the Americans, British, and French will be hostile when Japan (and Korea as co Belligerent this time) invade Dutch East Indies and Malaya for oil. But well, without Japanese troops being tied down in Korea, we can see a totally larger area conquered by the combined might of the two empires, but comparatively smaller area conquered by each. Japan got all the Islands and some coastal regions, Korea will got mainland and maybe some oil producing islands for the deal.
And when the Japanese do the Pearl Harbour...
But uh, seriously? Korea joining Axis too? So the Axis will be technically half Asian now? What will Hitler think of that?
Yeah, USA is definitely getting whopped in the ass this time if they really try to intervene in the Pacific. No Korean guerillas to help them this time, KMT and PLA will be mostly dead already, and with TWO Empire going in 'friendly competition' to get the most ex-european colonies, they will be LESS HARSH, and perhaps really maintaining their facade of liberators against the western powers, so... much less Filipino fighting at US' side for the start.
East and South East Asia are gonna end up as Japan - Korea playground this time...
Until the nuclear bomb finished..
after that, depends on what happened in Europe, USA is gonna bomb them to the stone age with nukes...
and with less direct threat from communism (since there is no Korean communists to manipulate, only Chinese communists), they're going to remove those Emperors and replace them with Republics...
so yeah, in the end, Both Japan and Korea will be Republics without Japanese colonization of Korea.
That's an awesome scenario. Unfortunately, I see one big flaw in it: Why would Japan and Korea wait until WWII or even until 1931 when Japan IOTL invaded Manchuria to deal with the threat of republicanism in China? Also, if Japan and Korea were threatened that much by Chinese republicanism as in your scenario, just imagine how much more they'd be threatened by the Bolsheviks taking over Russia and how both Japan and Korea intervening in the Russian Civil War might affect things (assuming one or both of the two Russian Revolutions of 1917 and/or the Russian Civil War weren't butterflied away or greatly altered). Ultimately, I think it's quite possible that if one used the POD you suggest for Japan and Korea to remain monarchies. Actually, it's possible due to Japanese-Korean intervention that the Chinese monarchy is restored in one form or another and is able to survive for a long period of time perhaps even until the present.
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Who's going to industrialize Korea?
The problem is how can you have a union that is balanced enough so that one country doesn't have an overwhelming economic stake in the other? After the Ruso-Japanese war Korea affected became a 'protectorate' state of the Empire of Japan. This meant that even though Korea had an independent economic policy they were obliged to not maintain independent foreign relations, which culminated in annexation as a pseudo-punitive measure when Korea secretly sent delegates to the Second Hague Convention to protest their status.
Even the economic independence would be nominal as Article 8 and 9 of the Japan-Korea Treaty of 1876 already enshrined unhindered access by Japanese businesses to Korean land, resources and tariff free trade. The only exceptions seemed to be emerging industries, according to one source, where the Korean Emperor authorized a joint venture with American businessmen such as the initial stages of electrification during a period of reform. The only reason this came about was due to a continuation of strong relations dating back to the period of American missionary presence.
The issue is how to balance out relations that doesn't assure complete domination over the other without one party becoming paranoid of the other. An interesting prospect to entertain was if Japan kept Korea as a semi-independent protectorate into the period of revolutionary China would the Korean royals entertain the idea of forming a personal union with Japan's counterparts and thus solidify a commonwealth of sorts, even if only symbolically. There was no concept of such being done in Asia but considering they were already trying out a myriad of western ideas on governance, why not.
The problem is how can you have a union that is balanced enough so that one country doesn't have an overwhelming economic stake in the other? After the Ruso-Japanese war Korea affected became a 'protectorate' state of the Empire of Japan. This meant that even though Korea had an independent economic policy they were obliged to not maintain independent foreign relations, which culminated in annexation as a pseudo-punitive measure when Korea secretly sent delegates to the Second Hague Convention to protest their status.
Even the economic independence would be nominal as Article 8 and 9 of the Japan-Korea Treaty of 1876 already enshrined unhindered access by Japanese businesses to Korean land, resources and tariff free trade. The only exceptions seemed to be emerging industries, according to one source, where the Korean Emperor authorized a joint venture with American businessmen such as the initial stages of electrification during a period of reform. The only reason this came about was due to a continuation of strong relations dating back to the period of American missionary presence.
The issue is how to balance out relations that doesn't assure complete domination over the other without one party becoming paranoid of the other.
An interesting prospect to entertain was if Japan kept Korea as a semi-independent protectorate into the period of revolutionary China would the Korean royals entertain the idea of forming a personal union with Japan's counterparts and thus solidify a commonwealth of sorts, even if only symbolically. There was no concept of such being done in Asia but considering they were already trying out a myriad of western ideas on governance, why not.Germany and France are fairly balanced.
And even if one side is much richer than the other its not necessarily a bad thing. Canada is quite happy despite the US being so economically dominant.
Foreign business interests aren't automatically a bad thing. Without them Japan wouldn't have modernised. South America too owes much of its 19th century development to British business interests.
Let's say the Japanese actually have a stake over Korean Monarch's survival rather than outright annexing them, and the ironic possible POD is the growth of Chinese Republican sentiments in late 19th century also grows in Korea and Japan
Yes, Japan did have some early hostilities with Korea, but then, let's say Korea clearly siding with Japan in Russo-Japan war.
Soon, after Sun Yat Sen's revolution, they will definitely grew closer and LESS HOSTILE because the threat of Republicanism is greater than their historical hostilities, especially since both Dynasty have been intermarriaged in the past, they ARE viewed as "foreign dynasty" in BOTH their empire (although not as bad as the Qing). If they are rational, they will work together and closer to save their ass... and yes, that means NO japanese Colonization of Korea.
...
Yes, I can see both end up as Monarchy up until...
well, WW2, seriously, but with Korea allied with Japan, and both agreed to carve China up. And with TWO Asian Empires carving China, it will either make the western powers tell the Chinese to suck it up and say "We don't care." or actually doubles their efforts to help KMT Republic.
And whatever they do, even if the first are done, the Americans, British, and French will be hostile when Japan (and Korea as co Belligerent this time) invade Dutch East Indies and Malaya for oil. But well, without Japanese troops being tied down in Korea, we can see a totally larger area conquered by the combined might of the two empires, but comparatively smaller area conquered by each. Japan got all the Islands and some coastal regions, Korea will got mainland and maybe some oil producing islands for the deal.
And when the Japanese do the Pearl Harbour...
But uh, seriously? Korea joining Axis too? So the Axis will be technically half Asian now? What will Hitler think of that?
Yeah, USA is definitely getting whopped in the ass this time if they really try to intervene in the Pacific. No Korean guerillas to help them this time, KMT and PLA will be mostly dead already, and with TWO Empire going in 'friendly competition' to get the most ex-european colonies, they will be LESS HARSH, and perhaps really maintaining their facade of liberators against the western powers, so... much less Filipino fighting at US' side for the start.
East and South East Asia are gonna end up as Japan - Korea playground this time...
Until the nuclear bomb finished..
after that, depends on what happened in Europe, USA is gonna bomb them to the stone age with nukes...
and with less direct threat from communism (since there is no Korean communists to manipulate, only Chinese communists), they're going to remove those Emperors and replace them with Republics...
so yeah, in the end, Both Japan and Korea will be Republics without Japanese colonization of Korea.
With my Korean friend beside me, we both said "lol". (we're also both Koreans and amateur historians)
tl,dr: this ain't gonna happen.
I've never heard of this, unless you are mentioning either Baekje or intermarriage between the Joseon Yi and royal Japanese during the colonial era. Joseon? marriage with the Japanese!?
scandalous! Yeah, even Korea and Japan combined (and note that Japan made significant use of Korean resources OTL) isn't going to address the sheer impossibility of actually conquering and occupying China (not to mention that a Japan that doesn't have Korea probably isn't going to be in a position to want to invade China anyway).
Even if we ignore butterflies up to WWII (which is a big give right there), it's also not going to change the strategic situation that Japan finds itself in if a war actually breaks out with the US. "Korean guerrillas" played very little role in the final outcome of the war, which was largely decided by the fact that the US was producing ships at a rate where they could basically lose their entire fleet and rebuild it in a year (slight exaggeration, but only slight). Neither Japan nor Korea is going to be able to match that.
One issue I have with the 'joint Korean-Japanese Empires' is Japan's national interest in the era 1868-1900. Japan's leadership was scared to death that Japan would become like China: plaything of European powers.
Having successfully prevented that, they saw Korea, and its 90 miles to Japan literally as a dagger aimed at the heart of Japan. Japanese leadership felt they *had* to dominate Korea, lest it be used by a European power as leverage against Japan.
That will greatly reduce any Korean independence
Having successfully prevented that, they saw Korea, and its 90 miles to Japan literally as a dagger aimed at the heart of Japan. Japanese leadership felt they *had* to dominate Korea, lest it be used by a European power as leverage against Japan.
That will greatly reduce any Korean independence
adding onto that, Korea is never, in any way, going to cooperate with Japan. Unless the Gapsin putsch goes through with full Japanese support, the government is never going to cooperate.
You're Superimposing Today's Values on the 19th
The problem with that is you're taking 20th-21st century notions of free market and placing them in the 18th-19th mercantile colonial era where military and merchants more overtly went hand in hand on foreign policy. At that point North America was still overwhelmingly dominated by the US but Canadian interests were balanced somewhat by the fact they had the British Empire backing them. The intense stalemate between France and newly formed Germany after the Frano-Prussian war was tense enough to spill over into WWI.
Development of infrastructure in South America by Britain was mainly extended to Argentina and other locations the United States had no hope of reaching at that point. It was also part of a more tacit if not strenuous at times agree between the UK and US to keep other European powers out of the western hemisphere. The exception of that was German influence in Chile's military training.
You expect at this time where Russian and to a lesser extent American or French (if Napoleon III continued his reign) influence on Korea would make Japanese business and aristocracy comfortable knowing that any deals made could be one decree, by the Korean emperor, away from being taken tomorrow? I am in no way defending colonialism but it was made not only out of conquest to create more power but also the fear of losing it. The only way I can see an alternative to what transpired between Japan and Korea is either (1) Korea falls under the influence and becomes a protectorate another foreign nation, (2) Korea becomes stronger or equal to Japan and (3) Japan rises to a pre-eminent power without its government embracing western tactics and embracing the 'global order' of that period (impossibru!?).
The problem with that is you're taking 20th-21st century notions of free market and placing them in the 18th-19th mercantile colonial era where military and merchants more overtly went hand in hand on foreign policy. At that point North America was still overwhelmingly dominated by the US but Canadian interests were balanced somewhat by the fact they had the British Empire backing them. The intense stalemate between France and newly formed Germany after the Frano-Prussian war was tense enough to spill over into WWI.
Development of infrastructure in South America by Britain was mainly extended to Argentina and other locations the United States had no hope of reaching at that point. It was also part of a more tacit if not strenuous at times agree between the UK and US to keep other European powers out of the western hemisphere. The exception of that was German influence in Chile's military training.
You expect at this time where Russian and to a lesser extent American or French (if Napoleon III continued his reign) influence on Korea would make Japanese business and aristocracy comfortable knowing that any deals made could be one decree, by the Korean emperor, away from being taken tomorrow? I am in no way defending colonialism but it was made not only out of conquest to create more power but also the fear of losing it. The only way I can see an alternative to what transpired between Japan and Korea is either (1) Korea falls under the influence and becomes a protectorate another foreign nation, (2) Korea becomes stronger or equal to Japan and (3) Japan rises to a pre-eminent power without its government embracing western tactics and embracing the 'global order' of that period (impossibru!?).