No Hitler = far right wank?

[Fatt Shea]

In the 1930s, much of Europe was ruled by right wing authoritarians, who found support from anti communists, nationalists, traditional elites and trying to stop "party conflict" with Hitler in Germany, the king ruling Yugoslavia, Dollfuss in Austria, Benny in Italy and the rest of them. As well as other nations having reletively popular right authoritarian movements such as France, Belguim and Finland.

Dark blue showing nations with right wing authoritarian rule (not france).
But the majority of these governments were destroyed by WW2, and the post WW2 world in the end becoming commmunist puppets or western democracies. But in a world without Hitler and WW2 these conservative/facsist dictatorships would still reign though Europe and would not be isolated or hated by the rest of Europe like the Iberian dictators ended up being. And without Hitler most here say Germany would be ruled by a right dictatorship that would avoid WW2, meaning these governemtns won't be destroyed.
So without WW2 and HItler would right wing authoritarianism still remain popular throughout Europe or was the change to democracy and communinism and inevitable with changing technologies and history moving forward?

 

[KingSweden24]

In the 1930s, much of Europe was ruled by right wing authoritarians, who found support from anti communists, nationalists, traditional elites and trying to stop "party conflict" with Hitler in Germany, the king ruling Yugoslavia, Dollfuss in Austria, Benny in Italy and the rest of them. As well as other nations having reletively popular right authoritarian movements such as France, Belguim and Finland.
View attachment 721095
Dark blue showing nations with right wing authoritarian rule (not france).
But the majority of these governments were destroyed by WW2, and the post WW2 world in the end becoming commmunist puppets or western democracies. But in a world without Hitler and WW2 these conservative/facsist dictatorships would still reign though Europe and would not be isolated or hated by the rest of Europe like the Iberian dictators ended up being. And without Hitler most here say Germany would be ruled by a right dictatorship that would avoid WW2, meaning these governemtns won't be destroyed.
So without WW2 and HItler would right wing authoritarianism still remain popular throughout Europe or was the change to democracy and communinism and inevitable with changing technologies and history moving forward?

I think you’d see right authoritarianism definitely stick around longer. It did in Portugal and Spain, after all, for a long time after WW2… not coincidentally, two countries largely directly unaffected by the war.

I think by the late 1970s/early 1980s you’d probably have a shift in favor of more liberalism/democracy but it would probably not be the democratic Europe you see today by the early 2020s

 

[TheDeveloper]

No Hitler means IMO an inevitable western conflict with the USSR, but that would happen far in the future.

 

[EWHM]

Without Hitler a lot of his pet causes don't become radioactive. For instance, eugenics probably stays popular, probably even the moderately coercive variety.

 

[oshron]

Without Hitler a lot of his pet causes don't become radioactive. For instance, eugenics probably stays popular, probably even the moderately coercive variety.

i've similarly heard the supposition that World War II partly led to the Civil Rights Movement in the US in that the Soviets pointed out America's hypocrisy by still practicing institutional racism after just spending some five years fighting a white supremacist dictatorship (not that the Soviets were much better, really)

 

[Sam R.]

“What’s your theory of capitalist politics”
There’s your answer. This is asked and answered depending entirely on the theory of politics in use. Colouring them dark blue rather than brown is a bit of a tell for yours. Mine saying brown for mine. I’m not sure where the allohistorical content is: it’s allosociology.

 

[Fatt Shea]

Without Hitler a lot of his pet causes don't become radioactive. For instance, eugenics probably stays popular, probably even the moderately coercive variety.

Agreed we will see extreme right things like eugenics and segregation could last longer without trying to look good to the world for the cold war and without fighting huge ideological war against racist, eugenicist power.

No Hitler means IMO an inevitable western conflict with the USSR, but that would happen far in the future.

Maybe, and this would lead to more fears about communism leading to right authoritarians being able to get more popularity...

“What’s your theory of capitalist politics”
There’s your answer. This is asked and answered depending entirely on the theory of politics in use. Colouring them dark blue rather than brown is a bit of a tell for yours. Mine saying brown for mine. I’m not sure where the allohistorical content is: it’s allosociology.

I don't know what you're implying. I coloured it blue for no reason. I do not think capitalist democacies will lead to authoritarianism, this is shown by the fact that there was not as many right wing dictatorships in Europe after WW2 despite capitalism still existing in the west.

 

[marathag]

g. I coloured it blue for no reason.

In the US, Red vs Blue has a long history.
Red and Brown looks muddy, so stick with primary colors

 

[Sam R.]

One of the major theories of the capitalist state developed largely by German Marxists posits that radical anti state right wing nationalist populist movements (ie fascism) forms and achieves power when previous “ordinary” right wing movements or centrist/liberal movements prove incapable of stopping labour unrest.

Germany moved right post war under an assault from armed urban young workers. France moved right with a coup after 68. Czechoslovakia moved right after 68.

what happened in all these cases is that previous elites proved capable of resolving the issue.

In contrast Chile went fascist.

Post war Europe isn’t the triumph of democracy but the triumph of legal repression. From that political analysis.

So yes it does depend on your theory. And outside the US blue is used for conservative democratic parties and colouring fascist states dark blue has meaning. Try for a neutral “off” colour like greenyblue or yellowyorange if you don’t want to paint them the desert mud of German fascism.

 

[Fatt Shea]

One of the major theories of the capitalist state developed largely by German Marxists posits that radical anti state right wing nationalist populist movements (ie fascism) forms and achieves power when previous “ordinary” right wing movements or centrist/liberal movements prove incapable of stopping labour unrest.

Germany moved right post war under an assault from armed urban young workers. France moved right with a coup after 68. Czechoslovakia moved right after 68.

what happened in all these cases is that previous elites proved capable of resolving the issue.

In contrast Chile went fascist.

Post war Europe isn’t the triumph of democracy but the triumph of legal repression. From that political analysis.

So yes it does depend on your theory. And outside the US blue is used for conservative democratic parties and colouring fascist states dark blue has meaning. Try for a neutral “off” colour like greenyblue or yellowyorange if you don’t want to paint them the desert mud of German fascism.

Blue was randomly chosen also many things I put blue aren't nesceraily facsist but were just right wing dictatorships

 

[kham_coc]

And outside the US blue is used for conservative democratic parties and colouring fascist states dark blue has meaning.

The problem is that absent Hitler, most of them are just conservative parties, and not Fascist.

 

[Sam R.]

The problem is that absent Hitler, most of them are just conservative parties, and not Fascist.

As previously announced it depends how you view politics.

Mussolini, D’Annunzio and Horthy all predate Hitler. Rexism and Showa predate Hitlers rise.

for that matter Napoleon III predates Hitler.

 

[NedStark]

The problem is that absent Hitler, most of them are just conservative parties, and not Fascist.

As Sam R said, no they are not, at the minimum they are right-wing authoritarians, not just conservatives.

 

[JennyB]

Absent Hitler's support, does Franco come to power?

 

[Mikestone8]

Absent Hitler's support, does Franco come to power?

Probably. Most of his foreign support came from Italy. If Germany doesn't follow suit then there's no Condor Legion, but that alone wouldn't be decisive. And even a German dictatorship of the more moderate right would still prefer Franco to the Republicans, [1] so might still assist.

[1] After all, even Churchill tended to view Franco as the lesser of two evils, though he objected to Italian submarines destroying merchantmen bound for Republican ports.

 

[Fatt Shea]

Absent Hitler's support, does Franco come to power?

Most likely since Italy and alternate right wing german regim could still support them

 

[Mark E.]

i've similarly heard the supposition that World War II partly led to the Civil Rights Movement in the US in that the Soviets pointed out America's hypocrisy by still practicing institutional racism after just spending some five years fighting a white supremacist dictatorship (not that the Soviets were much better, really)

I've heard it both ways. The Holocaust exposed the tyranny of racist discrimination. On the other hand, television did much to show inequality at a time of consumer growth, as new cars, appliances and homes were depicted in advertisements, game shows and programs with no minority participation; yet people of all races were working overtime in factories to produce them. Perhaps "no Hitler" changes history and prosperity comes faster.

 

[Fatt Shea]

I've heard it both ways. The Holocaust exposed the tyranny of racist discrimination. On the other hand, television did much to show inequality at a time of consumer growth, as new cars, appliances and homes were depicted in advertisements, game shows and programs with no minority participation; yet people of all races were working overtime in factories to produce them. Perhaps "no Hitler" changes history and prosperity comes faster.

Maybe but we still saw discrimination in some places which have TV

 

[Ambusher11]

And even a German dictatorship of the more moderate right would still prefer Franco to the Republicans, so might still assist.

On the other hand, the Auswärtiges Amt OTL opposed getting involved in the Spanish Civil War as they feared that doing so might produce international complications which Germany would not want at this point in time. A standard right-wing German dictatorship might follow the Auswärtiges Amt's position in this regard ITTL.

 

[Rufus]

It‘s actually kind of hard to imagine a modern world without Hitler if you think about it (at least for Europe and the west).

WW2 has basically become the founding mythos for the liberal world order, and Hitler is the black hole around which all political, social and cultural discourse ultimately revolves around. And the further away in time we move from the events of WW2, the more powerful this mythos becomes. I don‘t think it‘s an exaggeration to say that it has taken on quasi-religious characteristics by now, with Hitler as a satanic figure against which all of society has to be constantly on guard.

Hitler‘s shadow is so long that ideological opposition to his ideas serves as legitimization for nearly everything and everyone these days, even people on opposing sides: be it progressives or conservatives, Ukraine or Russia, Israel or Palestine – all of them accuse the other of being the heirs of Hitler. Antifascism is the legitimating ideology of the modern (western) world, and the inherent ‚goodness‘ or ‚badness‘ of any policy is judged by its ideological distance and opposition to Hitler, fascism, and everything connected to them.

So imagining a modern world without WW2 and Hitler is almost like imagining a world without Christianity, Islam or other world religions; it’s like painting in the dark. There are actually not many TLs that really take on this issue on a fundamental level; most just assume that the world would look more or less like ours, with similar values, but different borders.