No 'golden' torpedo hit on HMS Prince of Wales

[HJ Tulp]

The sinking of the Prince of Wales (PoW) and the Repulse on the 10th of December 1941 send a shockwave through the world and certainly Asia. In one action the prime assets of the Royal Navy in South East Asia was destroyed by the Imperial Japanese Navy (IJN). For the first time a battleship that was under steam and at action stations was sunk by enemy (torpedo-)bombers.

The RN-squadron had been send to Singapore to act as a deterrent against Japan. When that deterrent failed it tried to act against the Japanese invasion fleets that were bound for Malaya. During the night Admiral Philips decided to return to Singapore as he suspected that he was discovered by a Japanese searchplane. This was incorrect but later on a IJN submarine did sight the British and made a failed attack. After a report came that a invasion-fleet was sighted near Kuatan Philips decided to set sail to attack them. Not long after Force Z found no landing forces at Kuatan air-attacks from units stationed at Saigon started.

At the start of this battle the PoW managed to dodge seven out of eight torpedoes launched by the IJN torpedo-bombers. One of them did hit though, with far-reaching consequences. The ship began a heavy list, rapidly reaching 11,5 degrees. Because of the attack the electric system failed. This caused it's steering wheel to malfunction, it's internal communication to distrupt and it's waterpumps to be unusable. Also it's aft 5,25 inch DP-guns couldn't be used anymore. When Repulse tried to get to it's aid she was almost immediately sunk.

This one torpedo hit basically doomed the PoW as it couldn't defend itself anymore. The reason this torpedo did this much damage is that it hit the PoW right where her outer port propeller shaft exited the hull. This not only damaged the shaft but also caused it to rupture the glands that were supposed to keep the seawater out.

What I am wondering about is the following: would it have made a difference if the Prince of Wales had been hit at a less vital place or if it had dodged the first torpedo attack completely? It seems that certainly the Repulse was very much doomed but could the PoW have made it back to Singapore even if new attacks would have (severely) damaged her? Also consider that at the moment that PoW sank (13.18 hours or a hour after the first attack) allied air cover arrived at the scene.

Map of the situation. Note the range of the Japanese Air Strike Force

 

[DER386]

I think the POW would still be in trouble. The Repulse was probably get sunk (Bad AA capabilities) leaving the POW to face whatever threat remained.

 

[HJ Tulp]

I think the POW would still be in trouble. The Repulse was probably get sunk (Bad AA capabilities) leaving the POW to face whatever threat remained.

Oh I agree, but after an hour there is aircover. Will the IJN be able to finish off both ships within the hour?

 

[alspug]

Without that Torpedo hit the POW was likely to make it far closer to Singapore and although I think she would have been very seriously damaged I believe it was possible to make it to Singapore . I feel HMS Repulse would be lost but POW should have survived at least 2 hits on the same side from aerial torpedo's

 

[Jack1971]

Does PoW stick around to help collect survivors of Repulse? I think not, as there were four destroyers to do this.

With PoW and Phillips alive, who leads at Java Sea?

 

[jsb]

The Repulse was probably get sunk

Not sure did most of the IJN bombers not concentrate on PoW as she was the most valuable unit until she was obviously crippled? The extra AA from PoW ie not losing most of her 5.25" guns at the start would help both ships as well.

 

[weasel_airlift]

With PoW and Phillips alive, who leads at Java Sea?

Even if PoW survives, I doubt that she'll be in any shape to do anything at Java Sea. The PoW will be the target of extensive ministrations it she dodges that first attack and continues moving at speed. I imagine she'll still be collecting several torpedoes. Probably some bombs as well.

 

[Jack1971]

I imagine she'll still be collecting several torpedoes. Probably some bombs as well.

Well, then she’s dead. Thread closed. But assuming you’re incorrect, how is Java Sea impacted?

IMO, PoW runs not for Singapore, but for Ceylon, Calcutta or maybe Rangoon (is there anything there?) to regroup, refuel and consider next steps.

Ideally, on her way to Ceylon, PoW stops in at Singapore to embark all European and VIP Malay/Chinese civilians and non-essential government staff. Her decks will be stuffed with children, which in their adulthood will be recalled as a great adventure, I’d say.

Does Phillips command the fleet at Ceylon or does Sommerville still take his place?

 

[Oldbill]

IIRC the IJN used the entirety of its torps in the area for that mission. With not hits and fighter cover coming in, there is a good chance both ships could have escaped. This is from memory, so I could well be wrong. I suggest you do a thread search over on the Navweaps forum, and then post your question there. There are some very knowledgeable people there.

https://www.tapatalk.com/groups/warships1discussionboards/

 

[weasel_airlift]

Well, then she’s dead. Thread closed. But assuming you’re incorrect, how is Java Sea impacted?

I was thinking more along the lines of, she takes hits and is damaged, but makes it to port. Where is irrelevant, but a British port.

 

[CalBear]

Oh I agree, but after an hour there is aircover. Will the IJN be able to finish off both ships within the hour?

Sure.

Air cover will be a minor irritant, at best. The JNAF had specifically moved the Yamada group (25 A6M) to the Saison area to provide escort. The RAAF sent 10 F2A as air cover.

Game over

 

[jsb]

Air cover will be a minor irritant, at best. The JNAF had specifically moved the Yamada group (25 A6M) to the Saison area to provide escort. The RAAF sent 10 F2A as air cover.

But where the longer range bombers not so out of fuel from searching, that they had to attack as they arrived rather than as a larger group?

Any A6M will be,
- out of fuel if they join the search
- to late arriving if they stay back and just react to the sighting
- anyway conduction a CAP covering the landings to the north 25 isn't much to keep a constant CAP all day over the critical fleet at such range

 

[HB of CJ]

The sinking of those two great ships was the final chapter in the big battleship/battle-cruiser fleet theme. It would not have mattered. Both ships would have been pounded under by the Japanese. Just a matter of how and when. World War 2 in the Pacific Ocean had become a Carrier War. Both Japan and the USA were to experience this later.

Sending those ships non protected and non escorted was one of PM Churchill's Biggest mistakes. But, they had left way before Pearl Harbor. What both should have done is turned tail and run like hell. Probably still would not have survived. They ran into a Japanese buzz saw. Their design did not have enough AA stuff. A bad series of events.

Nothing much really mattered except for that clean up job off the Philippines in October 1944. Yes there were some surface squadron actions early on but that was pretty much smaller stuff. A few exceptions. It was the Carrier Battle Fleet that settled it all. Aircraft delivered by the Aircraft Carrier. Surface ships to support/defend the Carriers.

The USN Carrier Groups AND the USN fleet submarines got the USN close enough to the Japan home islands. The B29 bomber settled things. The two bombs ended it 18 months early and possibly saved 10 million human lives. A horrible time.

 

[Jack1971]

Sending those ships non protected and non escorted was one of PM Churchill's Biggest mistakes.

Hardly. You expect to lose warships, that’s why you have more than one. Within six months PoW is replaced by both Anson and Howe.

Churchill’s biggest mistakes are not losing a battleship and an old battlecruisers. His biggest mistakes include Gallipoli (180,000 casualties), the Bengal Famine (>2 million dead), the Malayan Campaign (145,000 dead).

 

[Hammerbolt]

Even if both survive fit enough to fit on, you're still stuck with a cripling lack of allied air power in the area. And I doubt the british, just having dodged loosing them to a massed air raid, with risk another sortie without air cover, or at least out of guaranteed cover...

 

[ric350]

I always thought it interesting that two of the preeminent warships of their day, PoW and Bismarck, were both taken out due to “golden BB” aerial torpedo hits.

Ric350

 

[jsb]

Churchill’s biggest mistakes...

If you want to add, What about gold standard in 20s - could pay for an entire fleet...

 

[jsb]

I always thought it interesting that two of the preeminent warships of their day, PoW and Bismarck, were both taken out due to “golden BB” aerial torpedo hits.

Ric350

Its almost like golden BBs are not rare, you can maybe add Hood & Scharnhorst?

 

[Cryhavoc101]

Sure.

Air cover will be a minor irritant, at best. The JNAF had specifically moved the Yamada group (25 A6M) to the Saison area to provide escort. The RAAF sent 10 F2A as air cover.

Game over

The A6m's principle task was covering the Landing force's and LZ's in relays - that alone is a lot of job for 25 Air frames - if any did turn up - and at the right spot one would have to assume that they would have been with the Riccos in the first place!

And if they were called for by the attacking bombers who were at the extremity of their own range to tackle any F2s and any Hurricanes that might have subsequently have been sent - then it might have been several hours after the last bomber attack had been completed before they arrived such was the distance.

And the IJN Bombers arrived in several groups (one group even attacked one of the detached DDs, missed and then IIRC claimed they had sunk KGV!) so that 25 A6m's would be spread very thinly across the multiple airgroups and LZs and assault fleets (the last 2 which would involve a relay of AC)

So I do not believe that the 25 x A6ms would feature in this action not without stripping the LZs and landing fleets (which had already been attacked by the Commonwealth RAF forces) of their only aircover

We know that the Beatties and Rikkos that conducted the attack were very vulnerable to air attack - I need not remind you why there is an Airport in Chicago named after Edward 'Butch' O'Hare USN

At absolute minimum having some form of fighter cover over force Z during those attacks ensures that the attacking formations cannot attack at their leisure and indeed would have to make their attack in greater haste - so it's unlikely that a coordinated hammer and anvil attack could take place and far less likely that they score a hit - this making it far less likely to score a Golden hit - and making it far more likely that the fleet survives.

Assuming that they survive and having now experienced the potential of the IJN land based 'Sentai' (Air Flotilla) I would imagine that the Force Zs 'Fleet in Being' mission might very well be conducted from a safer base.

 

[Hammerbolt]

Its almost like golden BBs are not rare, you can maybe add Hood & Scharnhorst?

As Terry Pratchett wrote:

"Scientists have calculated that the chances of something so patently absurd actually existing are millions to one.
But magicians have calculated that million-to-one chances crop up nine times out of ten.”