No Black Death
- Thread starter Redem
- Start date
Europe becomes much more powerful much earlier on and the collapse of the Byzantine Empire is delayed by a few decades (centuries?).
NapoleonXIV
Banned
Generally the Black Death is regarded as having improved Europe. At least if you regard the present as being generally better than the past.
Europe had just gone through two fairly good and comfortable centuries. At the beginning of the 14thc life was good, or at least comfortable for more than it had been. Even peasants had enough to eat. It was also, however, very hidebound, with all institutions of any sort extremely resistant to any kind of change or improvment, and most in need. Particularly telling was a population surplus, with declining wages and the ominous return of slavery. The Black Death certainly changed that, among very many other things.
It's generally regarded that the Renaissance was pretty much kicked off by the BD, at least in Italy, where Cosimo de Medici founded the family fortune that would change the face of Florence and eventually buy itself into most of Europe's ruling Houses. Cosimo was among the first bankers and bankers make money in good times and bad but very little in times when nothing is happening.
The BD, however, was not the only bad thing that happened in the "Century of the Scythe." There was also climactic change (Little Ice Age) with pluvial decades, where it rained almost constantly, to kick it off. There was the Hundred Years War throughout and I think one other bad thing at the end but I forget what. With or without the BD the Quattrocento was an interesting age to live in but not at all pleasant.
Europe had just gone through two fairly good and comfortable centuries. At the beginning of the 14thc life was good, or at least comfortable for more than it had been. Even peasants had enough to eat. It was also, however, very hidebound, with all institutions of any sort extremely resistant to any kind of change or improvment, and most in need. Particularly telling was a population surplus, with declining wages and the ominous return of slavery. The Black Death certainly changed that, among very many other things.
It's generally regarded that the Renaissance was pretty much kicked off by the BD, at least in Italy, where Cosimo de Medici founded the family fortune that would change the face of Florence and eventually buy itself into most of Europe's ruling Houses. Cosimo was among the first bankers and bankers make money in good times and bad but very little in times when nothing is happening.
The BD, however, was not the only bad thing that happened in the "Century of the Scythe." There was also climactic change (Little Ice Age) with pluvial decades, where it rained almost constantly, to kick it off. There was the Hundred Years War throughout and I think one other bad thing at the end but I forget what. With or without the BD the Quattrocento was an interesting age to live in but not at all pleasant.
I think it will hurt the rise of capitalism. More workers means that citizens wont be able to gain economic and political rights as quickly. This means that the development of the modern European democracy would be put off for some time. Trade unions and the like wont be as powerful because there will be more people willing to work for less. Economically, this means a lower standard of living, which in turn affects democratic development. So I think Europe in this TL would be a lot more authoritarian and repressive. In a stange way, the Black Death may have been a blessing in disguise to the Europeans (of course not to the ones that died of it or had family memebers who died of it).
Yeah, industrialization requires a surplus of labor. If population is too high than you'll just have farmland everywhere, industry would be very slow to develop (if at all). If the economy is just run to attempt to adaquately feed everyone than Europe might not have an Age of Exploration and the like because it's internal problems will plague it's growth on the world stage. There could be more wars I suppose but I am not sure if these would kill as many people as did the Plague in OTL. I mean even WWI and WWII did not dent our rapid rate of growth much in the 20th century and those were the worst wars ever.
Yeah, it is, but they’re saying that Europe would be so affected by there not having been a Black Death, that it wouldn’t be the first area to industrialize, even centuries afterwards.
You could have a political consequence in Spain. Aragon was weakened by the Black Death losing much of the power it had. When Castille and Aragon united by the marriage of Ferdinand of Aragon and Elizabeth of Castille, Aragon was subordinated to Castille, that way there could be a more equal union and there could be Aragonese colonies in the Americas.
Max Sinister
Banned
Europe was overpopulated when Black Death arrived and had already started to suffer from famines. Repeat that as long as someone invents better agronomy methods, or you find new land to settle for Europe, or another comparable disease comes along (which would've happened, IMO it's only the question when).
You'd probably get many revolts or even revolutions, and many sects swarming around, maybe even leading to an earlier reformation.
And when the disease (read above) finally happens, the change might become even bigger than OTL... earlier republics in Europe? Catholic church breaks completely up?
You'd probably get many revolts or even revolutions, and many sects swarming around, maybe even leading to an earlier reformation.
And when the disease (read above) finally happens, the change might become even bigger than OTL... earlier republics in Europe? Catholic church breaks completely up?
Max Sinister
Banned
I'm currently working on an ATL where there are no Mongols and no Black Death either (or it's later), and ITTL, Denmark starts to do more fishing, eventually discovering Newfoundland. Since you need lots of wood for ships for fishing, and people in overpopulated Europe have a high demand for fish, and Denmark hasn't lots of forests, they start to found colonies for woodcutting - and building ships. This might lead so far that the government decides to send criminals into the New World to do woodcutting.