Let us say the French are crushed at Valmy, with Prussian troops invading France. The French Monarch is saved, the Revolution is put down, with outside help. Would this really put the genie back in the bottle? And, more interesting to me, what happens to Napoleon? He is officially still a nobody at the time, as this was considerably before Toulon and his rise to fame. In a Royalist world, do we hear from him again? s he swallowed up by history and events or does a man like him make himself known anyway?
Napoleon With a Crushed Revolution
- Thread starter The Tai-Pan
- Start date
FillyofDelphi
Banned
This early on? Yah... expect the Emigrees/Sword Nobility to dominate the upper echelons of the military as the Bourbons aren't going to trust anybody else to command the troops that wasen't a firm Royalist. Best case scenario, he still makes his historical proposal to be sent on mission to the Ottoman Empire, where there's plenty of room for foreign military advisors to get rank perticularily if Selim III's reforms go through stabily and he needs folks skilled in European tactics to drill his Nizam troops and isen't too keen on former Janissaries to do the job.
At that point, Napoleon was still a Corsican nationalist; an early defeat of the Revolution might prevent the wedge between him and Paoli from being driven too deep.
Or he could reconsider his earlier decision and end up on the Russian service. With some luck and enough wars could make it all the way to a field marshal.
Dolan
Banned
Would be interesting if Napoleone di Buonaparte end up staying as Corsican Nationalist, invading Sardinia, and from there, unifying Italy earlier than schedule.
Nova Roma anyone?
FillyofDelphi
Banned
Yah... I wouldent bet on it. A surely mob of hill folk with minimal productive capacity is not the raw materials out of which large armies are made, to say nothing of the difficulty in just shipping them physically to the mainland. They'd be crushed like ants.
Dolan
Banned
Ah yeah, same with how barbarian nomads of the Germanic forests can't end up topplong Rome, or how some pastoralist sheep herders can't end up creating largest land Empire in history.
Let's be fair here, Alt Italian Napoleon could start out trying his luck as a band of condottieri, or even latching into someone else with more starting authority. Hell, that was OTL Napoleon.
In Piper's He Walked Around the Horses, in 1809 Napoleon is a Colonel of Artillery. But that's a little different as the Revolution is scotched earlier and Valmy never happens.
Well, that's not guaranteed for the Emigrees to get in command again : they were seen as cowards who fled from France hoping they wouldn't have to face the consequences of their own mess (the nobility accepting to pay taxes and let the poor hunt would have avoided a full scale Revolution, since there wouldn't be such a hunger).
He couldn't trust the Count of Artois, who wanted the French throne, and even with no official abolition of the Monarchy, the King Louis XVI could try to get people that defended the monarchy inside the assembly, since they would have faced the true danger, and could be seen as a legitimate puppet government that's still able to rule
FillyofDelphi
Banned
Apples and Oranges. PanItalianism had no presence on the ground, Corsican manpower is next to nil and he has zero support structure, and Austria won't be distracted fighting on the Rhine. Napoleon was just as much of not more so a benefiteary of the very specific circumstances and army he inheireted from the Revolution (in particular the ability to mass levee the population of the most populous land power on the continent, same Russia, without fearing the political repercussions). He can't do that as a wandering mercenary, and will actually have to face limits on the amount of men he can spend.
Does the the roulette wheel stop on Green on occasion? Sure, but you'd be a fool to bet on it going so at any particular spin.
Indeed. His alt chance for a considerable military growth would be with a country “open” to the outsiders and at that time for all practical purposes this would mean either Ottoman Empire (probably with a requirement of conversion to get on the top) or Russia (no need for conversion and more than one case of the foreigners or people without connections reaching the top rank).
Hapsburgs - maybe (there were precedents) but IMO less likely at that time.
Britain - out of question and so is Prussia. Perhaps Spain but I doubt it.
In Royalist France the chance would be non-zero but, as you said, too low to bet on it.
I Mille beg to disagree. Is there any way to get an earlier panItalianism with Napoleon as an alt Garibaldi?
What about the States or Latin America?
FillyofDelphi
Banned
You're several decades too early for The Thousand, Garibaldi, any independent Latin American state to be a thing that exists. Its also important to note that it was the very experience of Italy under the Napoleonic Wars, (Direct occupation/looting, united political administration, delegitimization of the local leadership and their large replacement by German princelings from the Habsburgs, the expectations of Civic Law and Constitutional Government, ect.) were key in actually generating Pan-Italianism out of the long disunited penninsula where people on opposite sides coulden't understand eachother.
I thought about this option but at that time the US is not militaristic enough to provide an impressive career to a foreigner and Latin America is still a bunch of the Spanish colonies.
Unification of Italy would be a major problem with the Austrians holding strong positions there and royal France probably not being interested in the process either unless the plan is based upon wanking the Bourbons of Naples (even then I have serious doubts). No, as I said, there would be only couple of the major states capable of providing a great career to a capable foreigner without connections.
Koprulu Mustafa Pasha
Gone Fishin'
A guy like Napoleon could be the most powerful man in the Empire. His efforts to upgrade the Army can eventually make him Grand Vizier. Depending on his influencd in the Army means his power is bigger than any other Pasha. If he gets powerful enough he might even choose his favorite Prince to succeed the Sultan.
I do wonder what Napoleon could achieve with the Ottomans though. In France he had one of the premier military powers of the age, perhaps even enhanced by the removal of all the old Royal dead weight. Would he be able to work any miracles saddled with the Turkish military?
Koprulu Mustafa Pasha
Gone Fishin'
The Ottoman Army was already being reformed. The biggest problem was the Janissary Corps who largely did not want to go to battles but also refused to get replaced. As soon as Selim III started with the Nizam-I Cedid, the Ottoman Military turned out better as it should. But in 1807 and 1808 it was kinda forced to stop the military reforms.
Nappy in Istanbul will not turn the Ottomans in a Military Power France was between 1793-1812. But an ambitious and capable guy like him can bring results the Ottomans need.
FillyofDelphi
Banned
Selim III is pushing forward the Nizam reforms, so there's plenty of room for improvement. Let's remember that they're hardly behind the rest of Eastern Europe in terms of Fredrickian tactics being the norm (it was the structural reforms forced on the Great Powers by the Napoleonic Wars that helped clearly settle the edge in terms of command and organization), and Europe isent being woken from it's gentle drift without the stress brought on by trying to counter the French mass levees,total war economy, more flexible command structure, ect. Though there's no miracles (that requires miraculous luck in terms of circumstance) it's enough to build a steady, fufilling career
Well, he could rebel, declare himself Lord of Corsica, then swear fealty to the Kings of Sardinia, the House of Savoia. But should he remain in Italy, he probably won't get anywhere near his OTL accomplishments where he became Emperor of France and King of Italy.